inverted harness leg loops
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So a friend of mine managed to do something interesting with harness leg loops recently: |
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Happens all the time. You just need to roll them and you're good. It's not like the keepers take any weight. The leg loops are attached to the belay loop and that's the connection takes the weight. So as long as you tied in thru top and bottom or rappel using the belay loop you're not in any danger if the keeper gets disconnected or breaks. |
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I think you are missing my point here - yes it's easy to fix but it presents a problem if it goes unnoticed. I'm wondering if it has been connected to any accidents. |
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Matt Westlake wrote: At home I've discovered just how easy it is with many models of harness to recreate this situation. More or less just disconnect the leg loop elastic keepers, pull one leg through the belay loop, and reconnect the leg keepers.I think you guys are not seeing Matt's issue. His friend disconnected the elastic leg risers, then pulled a leg loop THROUGH the belay loop, then reconnected the risers to the (now) upside down leg loops, which were connected to the belay loop only via the (usually) non-weight bearing keeper strap. Never heard of an accident caused by this scenario, but must admit I don't follow ANAM very closely. Don't see this becoming a widespread danger, but maybe you need to keep a closer eye on your friend. |
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Maybe a picture would help. I don't know how you could put on your leg loops without putting on your leg loops. |
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powhound84 wrote: I would like to see a picture where the leg loops were removed from the belay loop then I want to meet the clown who actually tried to climb in the harness.I figured out what he's talking about now. I was thinking the elastic on the back. He means this piece. Shove a leg loop through the belay loop and it's upside down with the weight on sewn capture piece. Yeah, that's a bad thing to do. Don't Do that. |
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Matt Westlake wrote:At home I've discovered just how easy it is with many models of harness to recreate this situation. More or less just disconnect the leg loop elastic keepers, pull one leg through the belay loop, and reconnect the leg keepers.That really doesn't sound too easy to me. It's a bit of work to do all that so I'm guessing this is really uncommon. FWIW, I haven't heard of it happening before. When I teach new climbers to put on their harness, I suggest to not unclip the leg loops "drop seat" clips to put the harness on or take it off. This avoids weird twisting issues or confusion. If the legs loops are never unclipped, you can always untwist the harness without unclipping anything and thus avoiding doing something weird like passing a leg loop through the belay loop. |
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Ahh, the days of climbing in a swami belt. |
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My first reaction - shame on the climber for not putting the harness on properly. |
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Good post. Harness errors are the often the easiest to miss. Teaching climbing to beginners for several years (often using gym harnesses that have been put back twisted up in every conceivable fashion) has reinforced how important a buddy-check can be. It's true that most harness errors (upside-down, twisted leg or belay loop, belay loop behind the waist belt, etc.) probably aren't dangerous, but so what? You may as well take the time to point it out and fix it before they get on the wall. |
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I think you guys are getting the idea here. If the leg loops go you are facing a surprise fall where your swami belt slides up your chest and catches under your armpits which could be scary and painful if not downright dangerous. |
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Another friend of mine did a nice write-up (with illustrations!) of the event and issue here: |
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While I think its nice to bring this to peoples attention, I dont think its a huge safety risk. I agree with most people here, its not an easy mistake to make. Even if someone likes to put on their harness by totally undo then redo their leg loops (I've done that when I'm wearing crampons or large boots), getting your leg loops on the wrong leg will only twist your belay loop (and the elastic keeper cords), but the leg loops will still be connected by the strong tie-in point. The only way to get the keeper loop rotated in the way you describe would be pulling one leg loop through the belay loop, which is quite a bit smaller than the leg loop. Im not going to say its impossible to do by accident, but really improbable. And even if someone do manage to do that (like your friend did), unless they wear their waist belt very loose (and they shouldnt wear it very loose), its unlikely their harness will get pulled up to their arm pit. |
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I was about to post on a similar topic: |
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i say you'd be fine as long as the hard point is in the tie-in loop since your legs aren't going to pass through the tie-in loop after it's tied. |
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and i'm going to go with your assessment that he did indeed tie in below the keeper and that's why it broke, and that probably had nothing to do with him flipping over. If you look at the harness without the belay loop since it's not holding anything when you're tied in, all you're really doing is tying the top waist and the legs of the harness together at those two points, there's really no reason that would cause a flip over. Unless you're top heavy maybe. |
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Thanks for the info Eric. I figured as much but it made a lot more sense when you explained it. |
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The main issue is that harness makers mostly make rope locators that are not full strength. My friend recently broke his Edelrid harness on a very steep route. The locator uses a plastic buckle, and he had rotated to his one side in a fully horizontal position, putting the rope and force across the buckle and it snapped. As far as I know only Metolius has high strength (9KN) rope locators. Buckles or backpack style 1" webbing is WEAK sauce. |
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Jon Rhoderick wrote:The main issue is that harness makers mostly make rope locators that are not full strength. My friend recently broke his Edelrid harness on a very steep route. The locator uses a plastic buckle, and he had rotated to his one side in a fully horizontal position, putting the rope and force across the buckle and it snapped. As far as I know only Metolius has high strength (9KN) rope locators. Buckles or backpack style 1" webbing is WEAK sauce.They're not supposed to be a weight-bearing part of the harness. The rope is supposed to follow the same path as the belay loop -- that is, it is supposed to be around the actual, structural, weight-bearing parts of the harness at the top and bottom. If the rope is tied around the rope locator, rather than the harness strong point, this is a bad tie-in. Don't do that. Just like you shouldn't forget to tie-in, or shouldn't forget to finish your tie-in. |
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It is still possible to load the locator with a proper tie in. In certain rare positions with one leg really high and the other low or flagging, the rope contacts the rope locator and not the full strength tie in. |
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Jon Rhoderick wrote:It is still possible to load the locator with a proper tie in. In certain rare positions with one leg really high and the other low or flagging, the rope contacts the rope locator and not the full strength tie in.I am having a hard time picturing this. A really, really hard time. |