Why do you project?

I'm getting more into training after realizing that I can easily pass my current plateau and start climbing harder. Why do people work a route 20+ times to go for the red point? Does it help you get stronger or just accomplish a goal? I climb more trad multi-pitch guy than sport. I feel that I can onsight 10+, looking to get strong enough to send 12- trad, just to open up more climbs and possibilities. I have realized that gym and sport climbing 12a will help me reach my goals. Should I really rehearse a climb above my limit or stick with working slightly easier routes ?

Jeff, you caught me in a good mood so I'll give you a good answer. Don't get used to it.

Projecting harder routes will do everything you say. It'll definitely boost your onsight limit for that multipitch trad.

The idea of 20+ tries isn't really applicable to you yet. If you onsight at 10+ now, you should be more concerned about various routes of various styles at grades that are hard but not impossible. For your level, I would try projects that should go in 6 to 8 tries total spread over 2-3 different days. Trying more doesn't make you any better. I once jumped 1.75 number grades from my onsight to project. It probably took me 100 efforts over 6 months. At the end of it, I wasn't any better but I could stamp out that route just like a rehearsed dance routine. I was totally psyched to do that climb so I justified it, there wasn't much growth as a climber for me though.

That might mean 12a. That might mean 11b. You'll need to experiment. This works fine for trad as well. Especially Indian Creek but anywhere (LCC) with lots of trad routes it can be done. SLC would be ideal as you can have trad and sport projects without affecting your gas budget.

Don't forget to climb other routes. This is a mistake I've made many times. If I try a project exclusiely long enough, I pretty much forget how to climb anything else. I'd suggest 3 routes a day, 2 easy or at your onsight level then 2-3 tries on the project.

I once browsed the Self Coached Climber and it seemed to offer lots of the same ideas in a more formulaic fashion than I just presented. I haven't read the Horst or Anderson books. I am sure they contain excellent ideas though.

After 10 years of mostly onsight climbing, I am finally starting to appreciate and enjoy projecting. Here's my $0.02.

Onsight/Quick Redpoint climbing:
Quickest way to develop technique and the intuitive sense of when to use it.
Best way to build endurance and overall strength.
Super fun to move quickly from one thing to the next
Feeling accomplished (for myself) meant sending. If I didn't send, I was disappointed in myself.

Projecting:
Best way to master a specific set of techniques.
At your limit you learn the subtle things that make a difference - breathing, reducing overgripping, body positioning, etc.
Teaches you to be patient.
Great way to break through mental grade barriers.
After initial frustration, I feel like projecting has made me a happier climber - judging success by figuring out new sequences, high point, feeling more confident about certain sections, etc. rather than whether or not I sent.
Will not make you a more 'fit' climber - often I find my level of fitness much lower after projecting a route, because my mileage is really low at the time.

I think it's pretty silly to tell someone 'you are not good enough to project yet.'

MattL wrote: I think it's pretty silly to tell someone 'you are not good enough to project yet.'

Matt, you silly goose. It seems like you've directed that comment toward my suggestions. I didn't tell him he's not good enough to preject, just that he'd be better served by 2-3 day projects than mega projects involving more than that.

I'm sure that as a 10+ climber, the OP could send a 13a by March if he chose one now. It wouldn't do him any good as a climber, especially since I think he wants to up his multipitch game. Mileage, fitness, and route diversity seem to be more important than rehearsing the moves on harder routes for his goals.

If that wasn't directed to my comment, well then, I'm the silly goose.

By the way I have onsighted both 11b and 11c routes, I just wouldn't say that I can do that consistently

I project because I'm weak...

Sport climbing will make you a better tard climber.

When I started sport climbing I didn't understand redpointing/projecting either. It took me quite awhile to understand it, but we didn't have MP in those days.

Good comments have been made but this is my main motivation:

The more difficult a route is, and the more you invest in it, the more satisfaction you get out of it.

Besides the big satisfaction of redpointing a route that seemed impossible when you first got on it, there are small epiphanies (Eureka! moments) along the way as you link sequences, find subtle hand & body positions, and cut your feet loose like Chris Sharma.

The redpointing process is journey of discovery. Of the route and yourself.

In addition to what nicelegs and others have mentioned here, another reason I started projecting routes is I "ran out" of routes I could do locally. Finally starting to put effort into harder, local routes I didn't think I could ever do has kept me psyched on the local climbing areas that would otherwise get to be a bit too routine.

I'm still way stoked on onsight climbing and feel that projecting harder routes has helped me read routes better for onsighting.

John Byrnes wrote:The more difficult a route is, and the more you invest in it, the more satisfaction you get out of it.

^ This.

I'd add that there is a point of diminishing returns for me though, as the OP has suggested. I now try and target routes I can send in about 3 sessions (less than 10 attempts). Otherwise you devote too much time to mastering a narrow range of skills needed for one route, and you stress yourself out (I do, anyway)!

nicelegs wrote: The idea of 20+ tries isn't really applicable to you yet.

Sorry nicelegs, I think it was just this statement that I disagree with. Seemed a bit condescending.

Climbing friend!

You must not be projecting your routes on the climbing rocks! Projecting is a wasting of the time and for those who are afraid of the unknown. Please try and make excellent flash only, where you will come to terms with your true ability on the climbing rocks!

Aleks Zebastian wrote:Projecting is a wasting of the time... make excellent flash only...

lol what?

Maybe I'm not understanding this. But a "flash" is when you climb a route on your first try, but with "beta" (i.e. tips from someone else)?

And a "project" is when you fail to make it up a route, but try over and over until you succeed?

If those definitions are correct, then why the hell is it a waste of time to "project" a route? You're saying that if you don't make it to the top on your first try, you should just give up and never attempt that route ever again? Makes no sense.

Or are you being sarcastic? Kinda seems like you're typing in a faux Russian accent or something. Maybe that's your M.O. haha.

FourT6and2 wrote: lol what? Maybe I'm not understanding this. But a "flash" is when you climb a route on your first try, but with "beta" (i.e. tips from someone else)? And a "project" is when you fail to make it up a route, but try over and over until you succeed? If those definitions are correct, then why the hell is it a waste of time to "project" a route? You're saying that if you don't make it to the top on your first try, you should just give up and never attempt that route ever again? Makes no sense. Or are you being sarcastic? Kinda seems like you're typing in a faux Russian accent or something. Maybe that's your M.O. haha.

Aleks is our resident clown/troll, and provides much entertainment when we are on the computer and not going for the bold flash. We love you, Aleks!