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Did you climb the problem if you started by stepping off a thick pad?

Original Post
Lou Hibbard · · Eagan, MN · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 410

This is not a troll. I'm not much of a boulderer but I got a DVD for Christmas that had a bunch of bouldering shots. It seemed like everyone always stepped off the pad(s) to start the route.
This weekend bouldering in jtree mostly without a pad but sometimes when others came by I took up their offer to use the pad and I noticed a difference.

It's very clear to me that stepping off a pad to start can make many routes easier. Yet this is the accepted norm now? How about two pads? 3? 4?

Is there some accepted standard on this?

I'm very clear on ethics of saying you onsighted/redpointed, etc roped routes but I've never seen any discussions on this.

I did a search and didn't find anything. Any threads on this already?

I was just curious.

michael s · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 80

No. Additionally, a true ascent requires raking and leveling the surrounding to be free of debris or dirt-based abnormalities that might be used to gain height on the starting moves.

Miguel D · · SLC · Joined May 2014 · Points: 544

Michael's got it. It doesn't count

EDIT: It doesn't count if it helps you get in position or start at a higher hold (which was my understanding of your question). If you start off the pad, but would be just as capable to start the problem without the pad and are only using it on the start for comfort or convenience, I'd say it still counts

johnnyrig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 105

What about sit-starts? Aren't you skipping the first three feet otherwise?

Jason Halladay · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 15,153

Most boulder problems will have a defined start for the hands. Your feet placements are then up to you. Sometimes the pad doesn't aid in this situation and can actually be a hindrance. It's really about challenging yourself...if you've had fun and can sleep at night calling it a send, that's what counts. You'll know it otherwise and you'll think, "maybe I should challenge myself and start from the same place everyone else does or as the description suggests to make it V-whatever."

At 6'5" I can easily start higher on problems but I don't because I'm not there to go home later and tell everyone I sent something (that I didn't really send), I'm there to challenge myself and enjoy the movement.

johnnyrig wrote:What about sit-starts? Aren't you skipping the first three feet otherwise?
This also depends. It could be a sit-start for the problem is nearly impossible/hasn't been done. Otherwise, again, the pad may be really annoying in letting you get established for the sit start.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

The pad does sometimes assist in getting into the starting position but a true start you need to be static on the start holds off the ground before you make a move. If you have your but on the pad and are pulling / throwing to the first hold I personally would not consider myself sending the problem.

But climb for fun, do what you want it doesn't matter as long as you document what you do so people don't think you are lying.

It comes down to personal choice i have friends who reclimbed problems because during a swing they tapped a pad on the ground and thought that it provided enough slow down that they wanted to climb it again cleanly. I personally don't think that if i tapped a pad during a swing it is worth reclimbing a problem.

Lou Hibbard · · Eagan, MN · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 410

After talking to a couple of the local stud boulderers apparently Jason and Viper Scale have it right.
It is standard to start on the pad for stand starts.
I will instantly become a better boulderer. I had always handicapped myself by starting on the ground. I remember one problem in Yosemite I couldn't do off the ground that was easy starting on the pad. It was a very delicate slab.

Anyway - like I said I'm not much of a boulderer but these "ethics" surprised me. To become a better boulderer apparently just buy a thicker pad and some problems will be easier.

Lanky · · Tired · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 255
Lou Hibbard wrote:After talking to a couple of the local stud boulderers apparently Jason and Viper Scale have it right. It is standard to start on the pad for stand starts. I will instantly become a better boulderer. I had always handicapped myself by starting on the ground. I remember one problem in Yosemite I couldn't do off the ground that was easy starting on the pad. It was a very delicate slab. Anyway - like I said I'm not much of a boulderer but these "ethics" surprised me. To become a better boulderer apparently just buy a thicker pad and some problems will be easier.
For a non-troll, this is some textbook trolling.
Chad Namolik · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 2,905

Pads are aid, yet bouldering should be fun.

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

I found myself annoyed when some boulderers showed up and stacked 4 pads so they could start a problem with bent arms campus start that I had to jump for prior to their arrival. Why not 8 pads and skip the campusing all together?

Chad Namolik · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 2,905

I used to boulder in JTree with a short guy. He was super jealous of my 6'2'' frame with + 3 in. ape index. Doesn't really help much on those scruncher short person starts or moves, though.

Anyway, he would always try several times without a pad, then add one pad and try again, then another and another. Folding pads too that I had to unfold and then spot.

We had a blast though. Never really a competition thing, just out climbing around. I sure am glad I got into routes though.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

This wall up on Flagstaff has seen so much erosion that one of the problems on this segment of the wall you need to stand on a cheat rock to start at the original problem. When you look at the old pics in "high over boulder" you can see how much dirt used to be there.

Pic courtesy of MP.

erosion

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

Right Eliminator at Rotary Park is a very good example of a problem changing over time. It has been changed so much due to broken holds, erosion (and gardening), and a degradation of the start holds themselves due to the shear traffic it's seen, that it's not really the problem it was when it was FA'd by John Gill.

Why is this relevant? Because it now requires a jump or swing start for most people to make it anything close to a V3 (or V4, depending on where you look). The start holds are now terrible and the only foot you could start on sets you up for an awfully hard, and long dynamic start (for the grade) that throws people off the starting foot hold. Hence the swing start. And who's not going to want a pad under them in case they fall straight on their butt? The swing start is obviously easier if you're taller. So for a guy who's 6'5", I'm at my dead point before I even swing in.

But I guess the real question is, what does it matter if you stood on a pad, or 50 pads, or laid on your back, or used a ladder? The only person you've got to answer to is yourself. If it matters to YOU how you do a problem, then it matters. I care about the problems I'VE done, and the style I've done them in. I don't care what some guy I don't know is doing to get up them, before me or after me.

michael s · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 80
Lou Hibbard wrote: To become a better boulderer apparently just buy a thicker pad and some problems will be easier.
To really up your game a few thick pads stacked on top each other could have you sending that proj lickety-split.
Joe L 82 · · PA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 735

screw stacking pads, go all natural, just go out to places that get snow in the winter to claim sends of the problems with difficult starts, 3ft of hard pack snow can do wonders. It totally counts, mother nature put it there

Lou Hibbard · · Eagan, MN · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 410

OK - I started this thread because I didn't know bouldering ethics.
I was honestly very surprised to find out what they are.

But after seeing all the responses I do find it interesting to compare bouldering and roped climbing.
I've seen long threads on roped climbing as to exactly what constitutes an onsight, redpoint, etc.
Yet many of the bouldering responses from the seasoned climbers are do whatever is fun, follow your own ethics, etc.
Quite the difference, it seems.

I am very non-competitive with partners but somehow it would probably bother me if I was a typical boulderer and stepped off one pad to get a hard problem and my good buddy stepped off three pads stacked (if we were the same height).

Perhaps on the famous problems the start holds are defined but on the problems I do with the guidebooks I use many times they aren't, especially the stand starts.

Chad Namolik · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 2,905
Lou Hibbard wrote:OK - I started this thread because I didn't know bouldering ethics. I was honestly very surprised to find out what they are. But after seeing all the responses I do find it interesting to compare bouldering and roped climbing. I've seen long threads on roped climbing as to exactly what constitutes an onsight, redpoint, etc. Yet many of the bouldering responses from the seasoned climbers are do whatever is fun, follow your own ethics, etc. Quite the difference, it seems. I am very non-competitive with partners but somehow it would probably bother me if I was a typical boulderer and stepped off one pad to get a hard problem and my good buddy stepped off three pads stacked (if we were the same height). Perhaps on the famous problems the start holds are defined but on the problems I do with the guidebooks I use many times they aren't, especially the stand starts.
If your good buddy steps off 3 pads, and you step off 1, your style is way better than his. He'll be jealous. The lowest start as possible is always the most challenging and pure form of bouldering there is. After some time, you'll be seeking out possible sit starts to every problem. Comes with time and practice.
Joe L 82 · · PA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 735

Stepping off one pad isn't probably that big of a deal, but stacking them, I have a problem with that. But make sure you know the whole story before you judge people. Someone might be working a problem piecing it together and they have the first 3 moves dialed in and want to get more time on the later moves with out beating themselves up, so they might not be claiming sends when stacking pads.

Sit starting on pads even just one can be a significant difference especially if the feet are high and the hand holds are minimal. Not having to pick up your entire butt those extra 4 inches when all your weight is below the foot and hand holds can be night and day.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Joe L 82 wrote:Stepping off one pad isn't probably that big of a deal, but stacking them, I have a problem with that. But make sure you know the whole story before you judge people. Someone might be working a problem piecing it together and they have the first 3 moves dialed in and want to get more time on the later moves with out beating themselves up, so they might not be claiming sends when stacking pads. Sit starting on pads even just one can be a significant difference especially if the feet are high and the hand holds are minimal. Not having to pick up your entire butt those extra 4 inches when all your weight is below the foot and hand holds can be night and day.
Who cares how many pads you have? It still comes down you hanging off 1-2 start holds before you can make another move so the pad doesn't really help you other than letting you get into the starting position... after that they do not help you climb a route.

If you are stacking pads and than put your hands on the start hold and pull directly off the pads and throw to another holds that would be using the pads for assistance (aka most people would say a false start)... other than that they would make no difference. I guess they do sometimes help you get your foot to that hill hook before you pull yourself off the pad to get into a starting location but imo if that was the hardest move of the route I wouldn't waste my time climbing it.
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71

What abot soil erossion? There is a v1 near my place that is vharder now because the soil around the boulder has been removed by seasonal wind/flooding. If you stack four pads you can almost reach the original starting holds. I love all these made up rules. Toll is obvious troll.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
gription wrote:What abot soil erossion? There is a v1 near my place that is vharder now because the soil around the boulder has been removed by seasonal wind/flooding. If you stack four pads you can almost reach the original starting holds. I love all these made up rules. Toll is obvious troll.
If a route changes leave it changed... grades on routes will not stay the same over time, things break, sandstone wares down, starting ground can change.

I am planing on taking a hammer out to my local boulder field because someone glued a hold back on a route after it broke off (went from hard V5 to like a V3 with broken hold). You don't just glue a hold back on if it breaks off. The route changes, the grade changes, just climb it.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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