Garden of the Gods Problems

cragman2 wrote: I would be interested to hear "Joe"'s side of the story. Unless he is a maniac that goes around attacking people over every slight, there is probably a whole other side to this story

Still, whatever precipitated it, violence is never an OK way to deal with things. Doesn't matter if he was beaten into a coma or just slapped around- still stupid, illegal and wrong

"Still, whatever precipitated it, violence is never an OK way to deal with things. Doesn't matter if he was beaten into a coma or just slapped around- still stupid, illegal and wrong"

I understand the predominant sentiment here is that violence is never OK. I'm curious what the threshold is for folks. Someone steals the a stick of bubblegum from me, doesn't effect me. Someone assaults my family, I'll defend them.

I've done a little bit of travelling and have seen the threshold for folks living under duress in difficult and often dangerous regions. Here in the US, not so much.

T-Bob

Dylan B wrote: I think the legal principles of self-defense and defense of others, limited by proportionate us of force, represents a broad social consensus on what is appropriate. Things get more contentious when we consider defense of property, and very few of us would accept the use of force to defend "honor."

Defending yourself, family or even strangers against violent attack is a much different situation than what we are talking about in this case. I doubt too many people would suggest passiveness when violence is forced on us. How much you react and how you react would probably depend on the seriousness of situation- being attacked with a deadly weapon not the same as being slapped in the face.

I can't think of any situation where initiating violence is an ok reaction, even if someone does something rude or stupid like driving poorly and causing an accident or kicking rocks down on you while rapping, even if they act like a jerk while doing so

Arlo F Niederer wrote:And Shep should have called the police and reported the assault.

Still could. Got plenty of time.

And, a few witnesses to the assault, per this thread.

I dunno. Mistakes are made. I've knocked a few rocks down (ice too, for that matter). If a member of an adjacent party assaulted me for it? I guess I'd be pretty pissed.

Wonder who else he beats up in his spare time?

I guess if you felt like you screwed up and deserved it...ok. If not, file charges and get this hothead the help he needs. Before something more serious happens.

Dylan B wrote: I think the legal principles of self-defense and defense of others, limited by proportionate us of force, represents a broad social consensus on what is appropriate. Things get more contentious when we consider defense of property, and very few of us would accept the use of force to defend "honor."

It took 3 whole pages to get into an off topic debate about the semantics of self-defense?! Come on, MP! The devolution needs to happen in 2 pages or less. I'm at work and don't have the luxury of reading this far to finally get to a point where I can tune out...get your shit together.

Seems like it would have been a heck of a lot easier for the police & state to make their case if they had been called right away and could have intercepted the guy and the witnesses before they even left the general area.

Now they would have to go chase down this stuff for a case that probably won't even create jail time unless the guy has a ton of priors.

Now he also has time to fabricate some self-defense justification, coordinate what to say with HIS witness, etc, etc

All that being said, it's easy for the peanut gallery to comment, we're not the ones that might have to deal with a person with obvious and severe anger management problems seeking even further revenge for having charges pressed against him.

Paul Simmons wrote:Young guns got to learn respect.

right, cuz violence shows respect... sorry, i must have missed this in all my life's learnings...

I've never been the biggest fan of climbing in the garden but I was back in town and went out to climb the ultra-classic cruiser, New Era. While we were rapping, I noticed several parties climbing some of the single pitch below the rap route. They had seen us and we had seen them so I assumed they knew to be cautious and put helmets on (not sure what a helmet does when you knock a large rock down from 100 feet up). I decided it would be a good idea to just rappel with both sides of the rope coiled off the sides of my harness. I figured this would keep rocks from falling on the parties below. Regardless, the nature of the rock at garden of the gods is not the best so one or two very small (small from the perspective of the person knocking them off or the person standing in the danger zone) rocks fell, both accompanied by loud rock calls (yes "Shep" called out rock I heard it). There was a guy at the base not wearing a helmet who begun to tell me to be careful (he stated once "hey be careful). I mentioned (yelled back and said maybe you should get a helmet in a sarcastic tone) back to him that the best thing to do in this situation would be to put a helmet on. Upon reaching the base, I walked up to the guy and tried to introduce (preached to him that he should be wearing a helmet and that rocks were not a big deal if he only wore a helmet) myself so we could work things out like adults and keep the climbing venue and community a safe place. However, he lost it and began screaming at me telling me I almost killed him and that I gave him an attitude about it. He tackled me to the ground (yes) and hit me once or twice (no, no punches were thrown) telling me how he was gonna fuck me up (yep he said that). He told he has been climbing a long time and that he's climbed "everywhere." (him and his partner were toproping a 5.5.) Needless to say, this was the most shocked I've ever been. This was probably one of the craziest things I've ever had happen at the crag. Is there anything i could have done to avoid this? (Instead of preaching about wearing a helmet after knocking a rock off just say you’re sorry as you eventually did and “Joe” also stated that he was sorry to you – I would also suggest not rappelling on top of a party of four and next to a party of 2 without first communicating) I want to keep these crags a safe place for everyone and I honestly was not to sure what to do about this one, I've never been assaulted at the crag.

That was between my party and yours, joe was not a part of that.(When you are rapping from the second pitch of D&D (with a party climbing the same route) and belaying from New Era yes it was part of the problem as a rock could easily hit someone belaying there) And it just stinks that things could have been talked about and both me and joe could have learned more about making the climbing world a safer place.(agreed)

^ These are my impressions of what happened, I added bold for clarification of what actually happened. Next time just say sorry and nothing else would have come of the situation. I have been climbing with “Joe” for 10 years and have never seen anything like that incident including multiple times climbing at Eldo and also in the Garden where another party has knocked rock down and they quickly said sorry and moved on. Also we have knocked rocks on other parties and we quickly apoligized and again moved on. And I agree that tackling Shep was counter productive but think “Joe” just lost it after almost getting hit with a rock and then getting a sermon about not wearing a helmet. Also, I think it speaks volume about “Shep’s” character to come on MP and write up “what happened” and then sugar coating and straight up leaving details out.

cragman2 wrote: I would be interested to hear "Joe"'s side of the story. Unless he is a maniac that goes around attacking people over every slight, there is probably a whole other side to this story

^^^thought maybe more to it

Still not OK to assault someone but good to hear both sides. Glad nobody was hurt and I hope "Joe" just made a mistake in this incident and shows more restraint in the future.

It goes both way...yes it pays to be careful and considerate when rapping and tossing ropes etc...

But you've got to be equally at blame (and partially stupid) to knowingly climb a route under an established rappel line in an area full of chossy rock, or worse yet, to just stand around at the base of said chossy rap line, especially without a helmet. And as far as being hit with a rap rope that is tossed? I really don't see the big deal. I've been hit by ropes plenty of time and it usually just isn't a big deal. It's not as if it's a rock. Personally, I see calling "rope" as more of a warning than a request. I do understand that not everyone feels the same and try to be considerate of this, but it's not as if I'm going to wait around for everyone to finish their climbs if the rap off is the only way down.

Seems like Joe's friend is also sugar coating the "he hit me or once twice" part with the not-mutually-exclusive "no punches were thrown". Or somebody is lying.

I do agree it would have been better for Shep to just apologize instead of mentioning helmets.

It's worth mentioning for folks not familiar with the area that the "Rappel Line" is a legitimate route called "Diesel and Dust " and it serves, secondarily, as a series of rappels for New Era.

I agree with Christian about the helmet thing. People really do not like having the obvious pointed out to them. Much easier to stay in the line of obvious rock and rope fall and then be a dick when rock and rope fall occur.

Zef Cat wrote:I agree with Christian about the helmet thing. People really do not like having the obvious pointed out to them. Much easier to stay in the line of obvious rock and rope fall and then be a dick when rock and rope fall occur.

That's not really the point, it's not about logic or who's "right" or who's "wrong", but what could have been done to prevent escalation.

Yeah, it's fucking obvious helmets or getting out from underneath would be a good idea, but you could still only say "Sorry man, I tried my best not to knock anything off."

I mean, for example, you really think some road rage retard who cuts you off and then gets angry at YOU is gonna give a shit about your logical appraisal of the situation before pumping a few rounds into you or your car?

Sorry to agree Christian.

I was just agreeing that people do not like to be told that helmets are a good idea at certain chossy areas. Similarly, standing under an obvious hazard and waiting to get hit (even if the rapper is in the wrong) will not help you.

So do you think you really can prevent escalation with a road rage retard? Would sorry really have worked? Doubt it. As you pointed out very little logic was involved.

Road rage, rock rage, whatever. It's easy to be pissed off at someone much of the time. The hard part is dealing with it without being a bigger a__hole than the person that made you mad.

Grrr!

1. Climb under another party
2. Bitch about the consequences
Brilliant!

Zef Cat wrote:Sorry to agree Christian. I was just agreeing that people do not like to be told that helmets are a good idea at certain chossy areas. Similarly, standing under an obvious hazard and waiting to get hit (even if the rapper is in the wrong) will not help you. So do you think you really can prevent escalation with a road rage retard? Would sorry really have worked? Doubt it. As you pointed out very little logic was involved.

Sure I can, and have, but that's no guarantee it'll work for every cranked-out redneck out there. Hopefully will never have to use any measures more extreme than just letting them have some space if they've now decided the road is their "territory".

Never said the exact same strategy to prevent escalation was in order in both situations, only the general principle of not escalating.

A quick read of somebody's body language, facial expression, etc and some common sense (ie don't go tell somebody who's already pissed what they "might not like to hear") might have prevented this. Or not.

Christian,
No one stated that you said the same strategy would work everytime. I retract my agreement if that will make you feel better.