Mountain Project Logo

Faster rappelling in the Gunks

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
Josh Janes wrote:#eastcoastproblems
#hashtagsrdumb
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
Bradley Pazian wrote: What's the walkoff for Madame G's? I did this Sunday near the Snooky's area and ended up just walking back to the uberfall descent path as I didn't know a closer walkoff.
Madame G's is a very fast/easy rap, so there would be no time saved (unless there's a long line).
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Interestingly the walk off from the Black Dike on cannon is faster than the rap.

Jake D. · · Northeast · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 365
Chris Duca wrote:Been climbing at the Gunks for 20 years now, and I have always used 60m rope. My suggestion is learn where all of the rap stations are, and get comfortable practicing efficient rappel techniques with one rope. Traveling fast and light at the Gunks is strategic.
Having a 70m will let you combine more pitches on the way up. Belays and/or lead changes are slower than rappel change overs so eliminating one or more stops on the way up is nice if you can manage the rope drag.

last time I was at the gunks I (mostly followed) M G's in 1 pitch, erect direction 2 pitch, ridicullissima 1 pitch..
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

what the big deal about going faster, combineing pitches, doing super long pitches etc.? I always thought the idea was to relax and have fun. It's not exactly an alpine environment where speed is nessicary.

Jay Harrison · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 6,307

If you plan to climb near the start of your last route, rapping is faster...if you have your system dialed and there isn't a queue at the rap station.
Speed is not the only factor to consider. Climbers are trending away from walk-offs because that increases our impact on the terrain, in what is usually a very fragile environment (clifftops). If you're an old guy with bad knees/hips/what-have-you, rapping is less painful than walking off. And (again, assuming you have your act together), rapping can be safer than walking off.

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
Nick Goldsmith wrote:what the big deal about going faster, combineing pitches, doing super long pitches etc.? I always thought the idea was to relax and have fun. It's not exactly an alpine environment where speed is nessicary.
It's a balance, getting in more pitches especially during shorter days in Spring/Fall is all about efficiency (and sometimes about crowded belays/lines... gt ledge for High E comes to mind).

Additionally some use the Gunks as training for bigger stuff. I know the efficiency skills I've honed at the Gunks have paid off on longer multipitch elsewhere. And I'll happily trade getting more climbing in versus more gabbing/waiting.
Sean McAuley · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 10
Nick Goldsmith wrote:what the big deal about going faster, combineing pitches, doing super long pitches etc.? I always thought the idea was to relax and have fun. It's not exactly an alpine environment where speed is nessicary.
Different people have fun in different ways. I've had great days at the gunks doing only 2-3 climbs and fantastic days doing 15+ pitches. Personally, I've always found rapping to be pretty quick, other than the times you're stuck at the arrow rap waiting 20 mins for two people to go through an incredibly long "safety check" then proceed to rap at a glacial rate on doubles down to the base...patience is a virtue I guess.

I did have a day of knocking out about 14 or 15 pitches of 5.10 which all were rapped and it wasn't even a particularly long day. I've always found people think it's the rapping that takes forever, yet they never look at how efficiently they're climbing and placing gear. I swear I've cleaned a climb, threaded the chains, rapped, and pull the rope in the time it's taken some people to place a single piece on a nearby route...C'est la vie
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

I hear you on the training though @ my age i am less about training and more about saveing it for the big climb;) you can only train so much before you start wearing shit out... I have no problem with rapping or doing a lot of pitches in a day but simply doing them faster does little for me. super long pitches are annother thing thats often over rated. they take more gear, more slings, more time, the 2nd gets colder for longer both the 2nd and the leader are subject to much longer falls at the begining and ends of the pitches and you generaly lose communication. there are places where long pitches are a must and places where its better to keep it moveing, keep line of sight etc.

The best way to increase speed is to be more eficiant. be methodical, be efficient, keep moveing. getting harried and trying to move fast all herky jerky is dangerous and not as fast as methodical smoothness. I have watched Tim D. solo moby in 20 min and he never looked rushed at all. Casual and smooth.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I'm not necessarily arguing for walking off, but I think it is a mighty stretch to claim rapping, with all that can go wrong, is safer. And since so few people (including myself, by the way) walk back much any more, not many people realize that it really is faster for quite a few climbs, so that if speed is what really mattered (which I don't believe) then we'd be seeing more walkers.

By the way, lots of rappelling has a significant effect on rope performance (see for example personal.strath.ac.uk/andre…), so walking back would be an effective strategy for getting more and better performance from your ropes.

As for long ropes, they have their downsides. Run a pitch from bottom to top, say a 60m pitch with a 70m rope, and if your second falls near the ground they may hit it pretty hard, because, with a static elongation around 8%, the rope will stretch around fifteen feet.

Another item. Doing long pitches in the Gunks actually means you get less practice doing the things that make multipitch climbing efficient, which is setting up and taking down belay anchors and managing belay changeovers efficiently. If you are using long ropes, you are getting much less practice at this and will, as a consequence, probably be slower when the time comes to do it for real.

Doing long pitches means carrying as much as twice the gear for the same level of protection you'd be using for 35 m pitches. But people don't carry twice the gear, so then (1) they run it out, or (2) they waste time fiddling in the wrong size stuff. So if you don't run it out and don't double your rack, you may pay a time penalty for the the fiddling required when you are short on gear.

Now to this add the communication problems that long leads frequently produce. The belayer can neither see nor hear the second. If any kind of issue develops, this communication gap will result in a time sink that can easily eat up all the savings you got from skipping a belay.

Put all this together, and long ropes are hardly a slam dłnk for Gunks climbing. Of course some people will use them and prefer them, but there are perfectly sensible reason to stick with 60m and below too.

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Naturally and as usual RG nails it! Most people have no clue how big your fall is going to be at the end of a 60 or 70m pitch . What may have been a 10ft fall @ 15m out will likly be a real 30 footer @ 60m out. Doing a hard move or sequence of moves out of sight of your belayer on a skinny 70m with 60m of rope out you better not fall cause if you do you are going to go absolutly huge! On the same token if the 2nd falls anywhere near the start of the pitch on skinny rope in my experience they go farther than 15ft. Following the Prom simo climbing on ice floss the other 2nd fell from a body length or so above me and went rocketing by me with all kinds of sharp shit and was way below me spinning in space. That modern skinny rope looks insanely thin when its weighted over an edge a few hundred ft off the deck.......

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616

For the record, when I mentioned training I wasn't referring to linking pitches necessarily as training. Agree on all counts of rope stretch factors needing to be taken into consideration. I usually only link easy pitches or pitches I know well for all the reasons rgold mentioned.

Improving gear placement/cleaning and rappel efficiency is where I've seen the greatest speed increases. It doesn't steal anything from the climb to be more efficient, and usually results in more climbing overall since you spend less time on each pitch and are less tired from hanging fidgeting with gear so you have the energy for more pitches. Kinda common sense me thinks.

Linnaeus · · ID · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 0
Nick Goldsmith wrote:Interestingly the walk off from the Black Dike on cannon is faster than the rap.
I don't think this is universally true. Depends on snow, trail, and talus conditions. For the most part, I am more in favor of rapping at Cannon than the walk off of either side.
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

rapping when cannon is not frozen is a wee bit on the dangerous side!

Dan Africk · · Brooklyn, New York · Joined May 2014 · Points: 275
rgold wrote:As for long ropes, they have their downsides. Run a pitch from bottom to top, say a 60m pitch with a 70m rope, and if your second falls near the ground they may hit it pretty hard, because, with a static elongation around 8%, the rope will stretch around fifteen feet.
I think what you mean to say is, doing very long pitches can have their downside. The length of the rope has nothing to do with it's elongation, or the amount of rope between the leader and second, other than it allows you potentially to do a longer pitch. If you're using all your rope on a pitch, there's going to be a lot of rope stretch regardless- a 50m pitch with a 60m rope is still a lot.

I use a 70 meter because of the added versatility when rappelling. There have been climbs where I was able to do 2 rappels instead of 3, or it allowed me to reach a more convenient or safer rappel station. Just yesterday rapping from the top of Middle Earth, the rope barely reached the second rappel station. There is another rappel station on the GT ledge that I skipped on the way down, but that one is about 20-30' to the left of the next rappel station. If I was using a 60m and had to use that, it would have been a very awkward and more dangerous rappel / traverse to the next one, and we would have had to do a total of 4 rappels instead of 3.

I don't combine long pitches much, and I never come close to using the full 70m when climbing. For me the rappel benefits are well worth the extra weight and bulk of another 10 meters. But to each his own..
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
Dan Africk wrote: I think what you mean to say is, doing very long pitches can have their downside. The length of the rope has nothing to do with it's elongation, or the amount of rope between the leader and second, other than it allows you potentially to do a longer pitch. If you're using all your rope on a pitch, there's going to be a lot of rope stretch regardless- a 50m pitch with a 60m rope is still a lot.
That is exactly what elongation is - rope stretch. So yes, how much rope is out between the belayer and climber is precisely what you use to calculate the stretch if the leader should fall. The more rope out/distance between them, the more stretch and the longer the fall.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynam…

"A dynamic rope is a specially constructed, somewhat elastic rope used primarily in rock climbing, ice climbing, and mountaineering. This 'stretch' is what makes it 'dynamic', in contrast to a static rope that has very low elongation under load. Greater stretch allows a dynamic rope to absorb the energy of a sudden load such as from a fall more slowly, reducing the peak force and therefore the chance of catastrophic failure."

70m ropes tend to be thinner, which usually translates to more elongation under the same load.
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

My ice climbing ropes are 70m 7.8mm I rarely climb more that 60m pitches but I do take advantage of the longer rappels. I do not feel the need for longer than 60m doubbls for rock. I do have a 70m single for rock but often climb on my 60m single as it is significantly lighter. only use the 70m single when i know I need the extera rope to get down. If I could only afford one single rope i would be tempted to go with a 60m as the 70 is a lot of extra weight and hassel on most of the climbs that I do.

My quiver is 60m 8.8 doubbls for multi pitch rock. 70m 7.8mm doubbles for multi pitch ice. 60m 9.8mm single for single pitch rock. 70m 10.1mm single for long single pitch/short 2 pitch rock. also the 10.1mm marathon is for projecting and new routeing.

Dan Africk · · Brooklyn, New York · Joined May 2014 · Points: 275

Kevin I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that the amount of rope between the climber and belayer is what matters, not how long the rope is. If you have 50 meters of rope between you and your second, it makes no difference if the rope is a 60m or 70m.

It's not accurate to say that '70m ropes tend to be thinner'. Many if not most ropes are available in multiple lengths, so it's the exact same rope. How thick a rope you buy is your preference, my current rope is a Mammut Galaxy 10mm. Another common rope that some of my friends have is 10.2mm, and available in 70m.

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
Dan Africk wrote:Kevin I think you're misunderstanding me.
It was easy to do. Thanks for clarifying. ;)

Most climbers get thinner 70m ropes to reduce the rope's overall weight. We have a 10mm-ish 70m for top roping ice, otherwise we use a thinner 9.2mm 70m for multipitch rock. It's a common thing in climbing to do this, especially when doing long approaches and/or many pitches. Every bit of weigh saved improves the enjoyment of the day and burden of lugging a rope around. Additionally, as you get into those final feet of a 70m on lead, the pull of the rope's weight down on you adds some extra workout weight while climbing (not always welcome at the end of a long pitch). Lighter rope helps here as well. The 9.2mm has a lot of stretch, noticeably more than a 10mm. Exact numbers can be found on the manufacturer's websites. Hence the assumption that people using 70m ropes are usually doing long(er)/linked pitches on thinner rope which results in longer possible falls. Carrying a 70m and not actually using it is for its intended purpose is a waste, mind as well just use a 60m.
J. Serpico · · Saratoga County, NY · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 140

Pretty much use double 8mm 60s for everything on lead (10.5mm for bolts and TR). By the time you get to 8.5-9mm doubles you lost the weight savings. Although my newest 8s are 70s (better deal)... So I have to decide when to chop them. Considering just chopping 6m off since at some point they may need a second chop during ice season.

Kevin is correct, usually people downsize diameter for weight management. My weight management involves handing a 5.9lb rope to my partner and taking one myself. Shared load,everyone is happy (or equally sad, whatever). But everyone gets happy again when we downsize rappels.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
Post a Reply to "Faster rappelling in the Gunks"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.