placing an auto block

doligo wrote:Not true.

Actually, yes, what I said is true (note that I said every guide "I" have met, not every guide ever). Every guide I have met has used either a prusik attached to the leg loop with no extender for the device, or a prusik attached to the leg loop with a short extender. Doesn't mean I have met every guide on planet earth, nor does it mean that this is the best technique. I was merely pointing out that this IS a standard technique used widely by seasoned veteran climbers, not some "safe-ish" jury-rigged n00b method.

doligo wrote:Besides, out-reach rappel device is not an issue at all. You really don't need to be touching the device any way past initial few feet when there is less rope above you, unless you want to burn your hands. You can simply control your descent with your prusik. Do people really need to mess around with their rappel devices during descents? I can only think of a few situations like passing a knot (advanced application, where you really want to have your prusik off the belay loop) or hair/clothes getting stuck in the device (the problem is eliminated by extending your rappel device). Not everything written is absolute and final truth. FOTH has been first published in 1960, it gets revised but I doubt it gets the most thorough revision. The latest edition is already 5 years old. Just look at the CPR standards - it changes like every year.

This is a very valid point, hence why I followed up by saying that I do agree that extending the device and attaching the prusik to the belay loop is probably more safe than attaching the prusik to the leg loop without extending the device. However, I feel that the safest option (or at least as safe as either of those two methods) is to attach the prusik to the leg loop and also extend the device with a short runner.

And let's be real here, it's not likely that having your rap device out of reach would become an issue (for the reasons you, I, and everyone else have mentioned), but I'm pretty sure that's a heck of a lot more likely than having your rappel device somehow removed from the system mid-rappel, leaving you suspended solely from the prusik. That's freak accident status right there (even more so than getting hair caught in the device or reaching the end of the rope while still 20 feet off the deck).

You absolutely need to keep the device within reach

Just a few examples

- missed rap anchors and need to reascend the rope

- you notice damage on the way down and need to isolate the section and pass the knot

- something gets stuck in the device and you need to unweight it

Etc ...

This doesnt mean you cant extend the rap, you simply shouldnt extend past around chest-shoulder height

All of the scenarios above ive seen happen, you absolutely must have the ability to unweight the device mid rap by throwing a friction knot above the device ... Ie reach above it

To suggest this is never needed or that you can "predict" before rapping whether youll need it is plain silly ... Folks have been rescued because of it

All this argument back and forth is plain silly ... Guides here teach both the leg loop and extended methods ... You should know and be practiced in both

The bigger issue is folks using prusiks as substitute for proper brake hand and rap control technique

;)

bearbreeder wrote:All this argument back and forth is plain silly ... Guides here teach both the leg loop and extended methods ... You should know and be practiced in both

This. I really enjoy debating stuff like this (I don't know if I'd call it "silly"....it is quite fun and engaging), but at the end of the day, both of these methods are valid and will get the job done if used correctly. As with most things, unless you do something really stupid, you'll probably be fine either way.

bearbreeder wrote:The bigger issue is folks using prusiks as substitute for proper brake hand and rap control technique ;)

Also this. Well said and could not agree more!

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Leg loop, this knot or that knot, extend it, pretend it. Some of us in this string know each other from MP (but haven't met otherwise) but I'll fess up that there are some here who have climbed and guided for decades in most parts of the universe & all conditions. I'll speak for myself (but the others would agree): sometimes I think everything I've learned in climbing has been the hard way, i.e., we screwed up but didn't ever do that again. We're nothing special....we're just like everyone here.

Forever ago I stopped listening to those who said "do it this way", "no, not THAT way...my way is better". My basic advice to anyone is to learn what works for YOU and practice, practice, practice such that you can (in this example) rappel safely under MOST circumstances and those outside your comfort zone can be backed up with something else you know when the first trick won't work.

Now up the game: you have 12 rappels to go and you & partner are out of water & low on food (set aside why that happened.....it just does). You're feeling weird, not totally in control....you just want down. It's 89 degrees and getting hotter but the darkening sky means......more trouble.....& more decisions to be made. Or, the ropes are icing up much too much and there isn't a lot you can do about it but you have to keep going. Your partner loses a crampon (for whatever reason...these things happen). And the third in your party just got hit with either a rock and/or ice. Now what? Do you have to go up the rope, down or yell advice as to what to do?

The point isn't where to clip your auto block or whether to even use one. RGold (in this string) said it correctly: likely millions of rappels have been done off leg loops (was the technique of choice long before Don Whillans & Bill Forrest (separately) perfected the basic sit harness as we know it). He was also the one to research and solve the problem (at the time) of why harness buckles kept coming loose. Invented daisies, co-invented cams (with Ray Jardine). The original (and recently deceased) uber-gear head.

cozine.com/2013-april/bill-…

Whilans was long before my time (so I can't speak to that) but Bill Forrest was not. He clipped his auto block to his leg loop.....or extended it.....or didn't use one, depending on the situation. This anecdote is why he has 17 climbing equipment patents and his big wall hammer sits in the Smithsonian museum.

What's my point? My philosophy is use what you know but know it cold......and when it's hot...and you're tired....and your partner (or you) are injured. No place trying to think "now, WHAT was that auto block string on MP saying several years ago?", NOR deal with someone else yelling at you to do this or that.

I have my preferences for auto blocks....or not....climbed for decades w/o using one ever and now I sometimes do, depending, depending. There are at least a dozen ways to tie....and use (a separate issue) them. The arguments in the string (as opposed to the discussion) are often based on leg loop vs. extension but very few commenters have mentioned their use and misuse (most of which I agree with). It's the FAMILIARITY of what you are using (w/all mountaineering gear) that is the most important thing BY FAR.

That said, there is only ONE super guide out there who will save your ass and it will need saving at some point and that guide is YOU.

It is incumbent on all of us, yes (?), to get up and down safely and help others when needed. Thus, I encourage people to learn as much as they can and never stop; try (more than once) clipping your leg loops, extending the rappel device, know the differences and advantages/disadvantages of the Klemheist and Bachman hitch with regard to auto block use. Only a few mentioned the Klemheist.....I was a bit astounded frankly (or it made me feel even older than I am) in that many have "prussik, prussik, prussik" on their mind. Prussik's are difficult to break (take apart) after heavy loading; the knot of choice is usually the Klemheist. A Bachman is useful for tired arms, rescues, comfort.....simple version of a prussik but w/a biner "handle".

This is a very cool downloadable app ("Animated Knots" . Every knot you would ever want to know and a zillion you don't. Under "climbing", there are about 20+; mouse over the knot and it will show you how...and why.....to tie it. I think about 10 or so are mandatory (in my book), even though you may not use it for years.

Here's another auto block knot ("rabbit ears") from one of Mike Barter's guides (Canada). Note that he extends his rappel device up but uses cord that he THEN ties together. Most will look at this and think "WHAT.....that's a waste of time. Just tie your prussik cord beforehand". (The reason he doesn't is because he's an uber-Canadian guide and they make everything they touch into magic, i.e., multiple use). The first part of the clip is Mike cruising around on his horse with his wife but stay tuned......his guide does show up.

youtube.com/watch?v=zfK02bO…

(I dislike extending the device for reasons some (i.e, bearbreeder; others) pointed out: have seen people tip upside down, have seen people catch an extended rappel device on a very sharp overhang and they were stuck, tore the sheath on same, but more importantly (as others said), I like having things within my reach. Several pointed out a super serious drawback of an extended device: having to go back up the rope (worse than having to pass a knot w/an extension for reasons pointed out). (If you haven't had to go back up the rope yet it's because you're blessedly young but your day will come). I have never, nor do I know of anyone who has ever had their auto block caught in their device that was hitched to their harness.....apparently some of you have (it means it isn't being rigged and/or used properly).

Lastly, Lisa's pic is illustrative and I'm sure it helped others visualize an extension, but I'd add another rap or two were I to extend it. I have found the Sterling 16" bound loop prussik is fabulous.....will take very high friction heat (up to 900 degrees?). Metolius also makes a similar cord. Can be tied into a prussik or Klemheist (best) for us harness backer-uppers. Because it is sewn and the seam coated, it obviates loose ends of a 'regular' fisherman knoted 6-7-8 ml cord, thus making it even "cleaner" and out of the way. It's also a hollow, flat-ish cord, thus even more compact & much easier to tie the three knots mentioned. It's also "grabby", i.e., not new cord that can slip a bit (or a lot) if not tied correctly.

Having an autoblock on the leg loop even with extension has one inherent potential problem - the harnesses twist. If you have a heavy rack mostly racked on one side, the waist of the harness could twist. Even if you have extended your rappel device, it may be just enough for your rappel device to interfere with the autoblock. Nice thing about having extended device with an autoblock on the belay loop is that it keeps everything inline and at fixed length. I encourage everyone to experiment and see what happens when your harness twists. Mine twists all the time expecially with ice screws. Sometimes there is no time to re-rack and distribute all the weight evenly, sometimes harnesses just twist especially in the winter with lots of layers going on.

I don't understand why if you are already extending your rappel device, you are against having your autoblock on your belay loop which is the strongest part of your harness and how is it having your autoblock on the leg loop somehow magically has your extension at right length versus on the belay loop? When you extend a rappel device, you are introducing a potentially weak (weak not only structurally, but also due to user error) link to the system - why not back it up on the strongest part of your system?

doligo wrote:Having an auto block on the leg loop even with extension has one inherent potential problem - the harnesses twist.

Doligo,

I've been working on a reply to some of the more important issues people are bringing up in this important string.....I'll add your concerns to the list and post it tomorrow (the 9th, Monday).

You are absolutely correct re: harness twisting (in general) and if it is because of a certain auto block set up, there are ways to deal with that as well. I'll add to your list, esp. w/winter climbing. The belay loop (& immediate neighborhood, i.e., your rope tied in) can get stacked up with serious traffic in terms of what might be attached to it (episodically or all at once): belay device w/locking biner, tethered ice tools (not leashes but tethers or "umbilicals"), possibly (I'll say rarely) needing the belay loop for a rescue situation, etc. All ice tool tethers (not leashes...different as you know) (BD Spinners, X-Gyros, Blue Ice Boas, etc. are girth hitched to the belay loop. Some will girth hitch the tie-in ends to a biner and THEN clip it into the belay loop (I don't recommend that - you now end up with "hanging traffic", i.e., same busy area) but either way, the belay loop is where stuff ends up.

Our "love in" relationship with the belay loop is somewhat skewed with the thinking that using any other part of the harness is taboo (such as the leg loops, waist band) and sure death if you even think of going anywhere near anything but the belay loop. I think it's a religion: "The Majestic Grand Holiness Seer, Prophet & Witchdoctor of All Climbing Gear Sanctity and Guaranteed Security of the Belay Loop". I know people who have married their belay loop(s); other's loops looked like Noah's Ark.

As I'm sure you know, harness manufacturers still get bugged by climbers (like me) wanting a harness with two, different colored belay loops (I'm not talking about the Big Gun type....that's a special use harness and heavy). I and many others wish more harnesses were available that offered two but I also understand manufacturer's concern about it (in my next post) and it's not for fear there is no market.

In my next post re: these matters, I briefly mention the history of harnesses & what the inventors thought of using different parts for certain things.

Stay tuned......harness history is more interesting (IMO) and useful than it what it may seem to be but is spot on to this string.

Thanks for your good comments....

If you're that worried that you will mess up an extended rappel or the leg loop method, go buy a Mammut Smart Alpine or an Edelrid Mega Jul.

Pros: assisted braking if you let go.

Cons: Still operated by humans who screw things up.

Just one tiny addition--you can add redundancy to your extension sling by basketing it through your tie-in points and then tying an overhand somewhere between your harness and the belay biner. Otherwise you're just trusting a single loop of webbing sling. I guess in a sense this is even a slight step up from the belay loop. This is the "AMGA way" that I learned...which of course will probably change at some point so YMMV.

Lots of good points made- but I'll throw in my 2 cents. A lot of this discussion breaks down to the specific needs of the climber and the climbing area. Though I will say I've grown to be accustomed to extending my rappel line. Last year I was rappelling off the top of a climb in New Hampshire and I had my backup through my leg loop on a fix leg harness. As I started to lower when I sat into my harness my leg loop ripped all the way up to the bottom tie in point with some minor stitching coming undone. From that point on- I extend my rappel.

Rob W. - talk to some guides again about the leg loop practice. The AMGA trainers (incl. a BoD member) that I climb with are adamant that the autoblock must NOT go one the leg loop. I haven't asked any of them, but I'm pretty sure this represents a new direction in "official" advice.

I second using the klemheist, it's smooth and much more reliable than the 'autoblock knot'- I always think that looks incredibly messy and sketchy, I can't really understand why so many people use it. The klemheist is just as fast to tie. I usually use just two wraps (actually more like one and a half), and along with using the smooth side of my ATC('regular friction' mode), with an extension, it's a very smooth and secure rappel.

I'll also second the sterling 'hollow block' sewn prusik loops- they work great, and it's nice not to have a bulky knot in the way. Get the smaller size. I use one for my autoblock, and keep a second on my harness in case I have to ascend the rope. Sure a homemade loop works fine, but this is a pretty cheap way to cut down on some of the bulk on your harness, and have a very compact loop that doesn't twist up or have an annoying knot to get in the way.

Some people are talking about your rappel device being out of reach, and I agree that's a problem, but you should never extend it that far- your device should be about roughly chest or neck height. I use a double-length sling pulled through my tie-in points, and the two ends tied together with a figure-8. This is the perfect amount of extension, and fully redundant. Perhaps more safe than necessary, but it gives me great piece of mind.