Placing 3/8" Bolts, How Many Turns?

Miike wrote:I'd rather climb runout choss on ballnuts than trust a China Freight torque wrench with my life, YMMV

Most accurate thing I've read today.

Stich wrote:Harbor Freight has a perfectly serviceable 1/2 inch torque wrench for $25. Get one.

Please please don't use a 1/2" torque wrench. Especially a cheap one.
Find one that max out at 50 lbs

Whenever I think about purchasing a quality crafted tool, I always consider the skill and attention to detail that Chicago tools by horrible freight brings to the table....

Friends don't let friends buy harbor freight tools.

Laugh and ridicule them if they do.

Tom-onator wrote:Friends don't let friends buy harbor freight tools.

I believe the correct name is "Hazard Fraught Tools"

My workplace motto is to quickly get rid of the guy who shows up with new Harbor Freight tools(they never get old). They do sometimes have a great deal on 3/8" Haulmaster quicklinks though.

The internal bolt on a 3/8" power bolt is only 5/16" in diameter. Still strong, but less than 5000lbs in shear and tension (straight pullout.) You'd be better off using a wedge if you're going to be cheap or a 1/2 inch 5 piece (especially for soft rock.) Where I climb I'd rather fall on 1/2" carbon steel 5 piece than stainless 3/8".

Blommerz, I use a 5" combination wrench, but I've been developing for a long time. Before that I worked on motorcycles which have many fasteners which torque around 25lbs. We are talking Kinesthetics here. You won't master it in a matter of weeks.

It's the torque wrench for you if you are new to the bolting game. You know there is some responsibility ...at least ethical for now...to get this shit right.

Where are you located? In case I need to get scared. ;-)

Miike wrote:My workplace motto is to quickly get rid of the guy who shows up with new Harbor Freight tools(they never get old). They do sometimes have a great deal on 3/8" Haulmaster quicklinks though.

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I gotta stop. RONFLOL. No more MP tonight

Look, if I was a professional mechanic I would buy better tools. But I bought mine to torque some bolts on a $500 KLR-650, which it did great for. I could afford a 3/8 in. and a 1/4 in. wrench at those low prices. Hate me if you want. My vice grips are made by Vice Grip and my wrenches are all Craftsman if that improves my cred. I do have a Lion's Head vice grip and it's crap.

If you have been wrenching for a number of years, you can estimate the torque needed.

Given that there are thousands upon thousands of rusty bolts that will soon hit their expiration date, we need to educate and equip all the bolt replacement volunteers we can. The cost of the tools can be financed by local climbing organizations in many cases if we coordinate our efforts.
Sometimes it doesn't matter if you take along a cheaply made tool (if you can afford the frustration of having it break on you). Mission-critical tools should be quality, though.

Gregger Man wrote:Given that there are thousands upon thousands of rusty bolts that will soon hit their expiration date, we need to educate and equip all the bolt replacement volunteers we can. The cost of the tools can be financed by local climbing organizations in many cases if we coordinate our efforts. Sometimes it doesn't matter if you take along a cheaply made tool (if you can afford the frustration of having it break on you). Mission-critical tools should be quality, though.

+1!

Locker wrote:" Mission-critical tools should be quality, though" You mean a hammer and wrench? Oh yeah! They simply must be of the finest quality in order to slam in and tighten a bolt.

If all we are talking about is installing new bolts, that's true. It doesn't take too many tools. The hammer I use cost me $9.00

Removing and replacing bolts cleanly is a different ball game.

I thought I could make a 3/8" wide tuning fork out of a cheap Harbor Freight prybar, but the steel was way too brittle and it cracked in half on first use.
Matt had some cheap needle-nose vice grips that were so flexible that they were useless. Made us give up on a stud bolt removal that might have been successful with a better tool that day. Better tools can mean less chop 'n patch.

Locker wrote:"Placing 3/8" Bolts"

I am guilty as charged: Flagrant thread drift.
The defendant will be remanded to the bailiff.

John Wilder wrote:It's not number of turns (which will be different depending on the type of rock), it's torque and it's important. For a 3/8" stainless bolt, you'll want to use a small box wrench for tightening, and hold three fingers right up against the bolt side of the wrench and turn until its snug (not super tight)- that should be about 12lbs. You'll want to be very careful about over-tightening the 3/8" stainless bolt- they snap super easy, and if you over torque them, you are weakening them substantially.

I tested both SS 5 piece and SS Stud bolts in the workshop on a piece of granite.

Used a 6 ft breaker bar/torque wrench combo

The 5 piece broke at the head after wrenching it 7 full turns @ 45 Ft LBS

The stud bolt broke flush after 12 full turns @ 65+ or - but can't remember exactly.

Just a home shop type example for thought.

mucci wrote: I tested both SS 5 piece and SS Stud bolts in the workshop on a piece of granite. Used a 6 ft breaker bar/torque wrench combo The 5 piece broke at the head after wrenching it 7 full turns @ 45 Ft LBS The stud bolt broke flush after 12 full turns @ 65+ or - but can't remember exactly. Just a home shop type example for thought.

This is good info. Because I use a SIX FOOT breaker bar when I install bolts in the backcountry.

As if.

(The reality is I'm FIVE INCHES from the bolt when I tighten it up. Not seriously worried about over torqueing.)

For the same reason, I find using a 16-18 inch torque wrench a bit hard to relate to real-world installation pressure.

Gunkiemike wrote: This is good info. Because I use a SIX FOOT breaker bar when I install bolts in the backcountry. As if. (The reality is I'm FIVE INCHES from the bolt when I tighten it up. Not seriously worried about over torqueing.) For the same reason, I find using a 16-18 inch torque wrench a bit hard to relate to real-world installation pressure.

Actually it is interesting to know how much you have to over-torque various kinds of bolts to get them to fail (even if the sample size is small). So I guess it was useful information after all, huh? But good for you for contributing useless snark.

42. For any question that has a numerical answer, the answer is 42. Duh.

That's probably about 300 ft-lb of torque. That *might* be too much. But not if your wrench was from Harbor Freight, obviously. Casual racism against the Chinese makes 42 turns necesary to achieve 12 ft-lb.

J. Albers wrote: Actually it is interesting to know how much you have to over-torque various kinds of bolts to get them to fail (even if the sample size is small). So I guess it was useful information after all, huh? But good for you for contributing useless snark.

Au contraire. It's an opening for someone to post a link to a 6 inch, high quality, low load range torque wrench that would be relevant to how I tighten 3/8" bolts.

One person's snark is another person's reality check.

Gunkiemike wrote: This is good info. Because I use a SIX FOOT breaker bar when I install bolts in the backcountry. As if. (The reality is I'm FIVE INCHES from the bolt when I tighten it up. Not seriously worried about over torqueing.) For the same reason, I find using a 16-18 inch torque wrench a bit hard to relate to real-world installation pressure.

This IS good info, assuming I'm understanding what he's saying, and agreeing with J. Albers that a larger sample size is important.

Mucci - are you saying that the torque on the torque wrench never exceeded 45 ft-lbs when you were torqueing (sp?) the 5-piece? For that many turns, I have to assume that either the bolt was yielding, or it was slipping in the hole. If it is yielding, that suggests there's a pretty good range that they can be "overtightened" before getting to a dangerous point. More testing is important to understand the failure mechanism.

Gunkiemike - it doesn't matter how long the wrench is, as long as the torque produced is the same. It just means Mucci didn't have to use as much force to generate that torque. With a 6 foot bar, he was only using 7.5 lbs of pressure (45/6 = 7.5). With your 18" torque wrench, you'd have to use 30 lbs (45/1.5 = 30).

If you want to calibrate your hand for your 6" wrench using your 18" torque wrench, just grab it at 6" from the head. That will require the same amount of force. Now you don't have to buy a "6 inch, high quality, low load range torque wrench". You already own one!

Eli Buzzell wrote: Most accurate thing I've read today.

Ahh, but how many cars that are on the road driving around in traffic at 80mph were put back together using those cheap, chinese Harbor Freight tools... I'd bet quite a few ;-)