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cochise development

Original Post
Jack Ubaek · · tucson · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 20

ive been climbing with a group doing tons of rad development in the stronghold. really stoked to see new lines going up in more obscure areas way in the back on the west seide.

we are notticing though that theirs allot of random bolts scattered around that basically dont look completed. the group im climbing with says that stuff is from a few random old timers putting up hundreds of scary death fests routes but never going back to finish them or make them safe.

anyone have any history on these? kindof a shame to see half assed routes put up in such volume on really awesome rock.

frankstoneline · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 30

Posting my prediction:
OP and crew are "finishing" old school routes in the stronghold for those lazy crusty old farts and or retro-establishing climbs they didnt know about. Shit storm ensues. we hear about how trad is rad and the gym is killing the pursuit of adventure etc. etc.

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

Probably Dave Deschamps routes, from what I've heard I don't imagine he'll give you permission to add bolts, so best to leave 'em alone.

Eric Hamer · · Tucson · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 50

I have heard that Dave's motto is that "If you are not bold enough to run it out than you shouldn't be out there in the first place." I would recommend not retro-bolting them.

Dj telle · · Mexico City , Tucson, AZ · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 1,879

just because you don't see any more bolts past those doesn't mean it hasn't been climbed... pls don't add bolts to existing routes. there is a reason why you don't bolt if you don't have to. enjoy the boldness of those climbs instead...

Jack Ubaek · · tucson · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 20

Thanks for the info, ill pass it along. by the way, I'm just helping these guys haul gear, stash hw, etc. im not the one doing any bolting. And fwiw while I appreciate the bravery involved in putting up scary routes i, like these guys, don't see the value in hundreds of them. any retard knows there just ain't that many ppl climbing R rated routes. Like they told me: times are a changing and you can either roll w it or get run over. Your choice.

sincerely, "the messenger"

Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

Jack,

First you wrote:
ive been climbing with a group doing tons of rad development in the stronghold.

Later you said:
kindof a shame to see half assed routes put up in such volume on really awesome rock.

This is all comedy to me.

(Yes I am splitting the context, but it seems plausible that someone will come along and complain about your routes, too.)

frankstoneline · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 30
Nathan Self wrote:Jack, First you wrote: ive been climbing with a group doing tons of rad development in the stronghold. Later you said: kindof a shame to see half assed routes put up in such volume on really awesome rock. This is all comedy to me. (Yes I am splitting the context, but it seems plausible that someone will come along and complain about your routes, too.)
No no no, he's not retro-FA'ing old school routes, he's just asking about them FOR A FRIEND.
adrian korosec · · tucson, az · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 145

Troll

Kurt Arend · · Las Vegas, Nv · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 150

ok i'll bite... so get with the times eh? how about this. How about you and your crew get with the times. Learn about climbing and its roots. Learn how these guys learned to climb "R" rated routes. Years of honing a craft to be able to put up such routes. See sounds like you are kinda new to climbing...IE schlepping a bunch of stuff for some guys to get a few minutes of fame. I would steer clear. Want to put up safe routes then by all means do. Retro bolting someones routes is the ultimate sign of disrespect and a fuck you to the party on the FA. Want the route to be safe? Then train, train, train, and then it might suit your ability. I am for replacing relic bolts, but to piss on others creations because you are too chicken shit to do the route is lame. Grab a book, or met up with some of these "old timers" and learn a thing or two. Show respect to the ones that blazed the path before you, and when you top out on some of these "death routes" tip your hat, cause some of this shite was lead on gold line, pre sticky rubber, and a rack that most would laugh at.
I digress

Kurt Burt

beensandbagged · · smallest state · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 0
Kurt Burt wrote:ok i'll bite... so get with the times eh? how about this. How about you and your crew get with the times. Learn about climbing and its roots. Learn how these guys learned to climb "R" rated routes. Years of honing a craft to be able to put up such routes. See sounds like you are kinda new to climbing...IE schlepping a bunch of stuff for some guys to get a few minutes of fame. I would steer clear. Want to put up safe routes then by all means do. Retro bolting someones routes is the ultimate sign of disrespect and a fuck you to the party on the FA. Want the route to be safe? Then train, train, train, and then it might suit your ability. I am for replacing relic bolts, but to piss on others creations because you are too chicken shit to do the route is lame. Grab a book, or met up with some of these "old timers" and learn a thing or two. Show respect to the ones that blazed the path before you, and when you top out on some of these "death routes" tip your hat, cause some of this shite was lead on gold line, pre sticky rubber, and a rack that most would laugh at. I digress Kurt Burt
thumbs up well said.
Greg Maschi · · Phoenix ,Az · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0

I volunteer for the choppin crew if need be.Who's in?Hope they aren't breakin out the Boschs, as this is National Forest.Sounds like the routes you are helping put up might fall into the half assed category.

Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751

Sock puppets LOL Russ!!!! Amen!!

World class trolling.

Sean P. · · Albuquerque · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 61
Kurt Burt wrote:ok i'll bite... so get with the times eh? how about this. How about you and your crew get with the times. Learn about climbing and its roots. Learn how these guys learned to climb "R" rated routes. Years of honing a craft to be able to put up such routes. See sounds like you are kinda new to climbing...IE schlepping a bunch of stuff for some guys to get a few minutes of fame. I would steer clear. Want to put up safe routes then by all means do. Retro bolting someones routes is the ultimate sign of disrespect and a fuck you to the party on the FA. Want the route to be safe? Then train, train, train, and then it might suit your ability. I am for replacing relic bolts, but to piss on others creations because you are too chicken shit to do the route is lame. Grab a book, or met up with some of these "old timers" and learn a thing or two. Show respect to the ones that blazed the path before you, and when you top out on some of these "death routes" tip your hat, cause some of this shite was lead on gold line, pre sticky rubber, and a rack that most would laugh at. I digress Kurt Burt
Truer words have never been spoken.
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Kurt Burt wrote:ok i'll bite... so get with the times eh? how about this. How about you and your crew get with the times. Learn about climbing and its roots. Learn how these guys learned to climb "R" rated routes. Years of honing a craft to be able to put up such routes. See sounds like you are kinda new to climbing...IE schlepping a bunch of stuff for some guys to get a few minutes of fame. I would steer clear. Want to put up safe routes then by all means do. Retro bolting someones routes is the ultimate sign of disrespect and a fuck you to the party on the FA. Want the route to be safe? Then train, train, train, and then it might suit your ability. I am for replacing relic bolts, but to piss on others creations because you are too chicken shit to do the route is lame. Grab a book, or met up with some of these "old timers" and learn a thing or two. Show respect to the ones that blazed the path before you, and when you top out on some of these "death routes" tip your hat, cause some of this shite was lead on gold line, pre sticky rubber, and a rack that most would laugh at. I digress Kurt Burt

lots of hardmen climbers on the interwebz....
Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

Jack, tell your bros they better get all Scott Ayers on their "new" routes and not post any info on them. Otherwise they're likely to get chopped, and rightfully so.

If they are running into odd bolts that means that route has been done! Of the 30 or so routes I did will Dave many years ago we always got to the top of the dome or tower. I tended to drill more bolts than Dave but pretty much all were at least R rated.

Maybe your friends should go retro bolt the Bachar Yerian, all the while screaming that "you got to roll with the changes", and see how that works out for them.

Franksonline, here we go!!

PeterW Whitmore · · Dryden, NY · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 50

Freezing in the shade while Deschamps wandered up some horror show that he placed one bolt on in 60' was a memorable experience. They don't need any more bolts because they all go at "9+"

tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507

It's cool and historical to put up death routes for your own ego. These should NEVER be altered to make them enjoyable for reasonable human beings. Yeah it's public land, but really the FA owns it. Those old guys compensating for some insecurity they had deserve our respect!

Karl Kvashay · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 225
tim wrote:It's cool and historical to put up death routes for your own ego. These should NEVER be altered to make them enjoyable for reasonable human beings. Yeah it's public land, but really the FA owns it. Those old guys compensating for some insecurity they had deserve our respect!

It's a poor assumption to say bold routes were established for one's "ego" or to compensate for "some insecurity". How do you know?
However, I think you bring up some good points. It seems like the Stronghold has an interesting situation where this "old-timer" established the lion's share of routes out there in a style that makes them inaccessible to the new breed of climber. It seems reasonable for the original developer to release his creative license to a percentage of his climbs IF a new generation of climbers wants some safe routes out there. Also, hopefully these new routers are doing some research before bolting over an existing route. Does it "seem reasonable"?
There's a lot of grey area here, communication and mutual respect might clear it up. Unfortunately, if y'all are dealing with "roll with it or get run over" and "If you're not bold enough" mentalities, I foresee little mutual respect happening. Good luck down there.
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
CJC wrote: Looking past your condescending assumptions....
Pot. Calling. Kettle.
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
CJC wrote:Get off my jock Albers that doesn't even make sense
No jock ridin man. Just pointing out that its a little funny for you to be hammering on someone else for condescension because you dish it out like a pro. ....and my jab was referring to the old saying "The pot calling the kettle black". Anyway, I agree with you that Karl Kvashay has a potentially good point, but one that is hard to implement. So, anyone got ideas?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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