Paying out rope with Mammut Smart

I'm considering buying this device but I'm confused by one aspect from the instructions.

mammut.ch/images/Smart+Alpi…

When paying out rope to a lead climber moving up above their last protection, do you *always* use the device as shown in the photo below?

Or is it more like the gri gri where you only do that position temporarily while feeding slack for a clip, and the rest of the time you are feeding rope through like a tube style device?

My understanding is the former, as this is the only position shown in the instructions, but they don't elaborate and their video doesn't show a climber in it to reference.

I've seen people doing it both ways, i.e. feeding rope atc like / pulling out horizontally entire time.

The ones I've seen feeding it as you would an atc, well it doesn't look like it works very well...

Paying out rope with smart

cheers!

You have to pull the device outward to feed it easily. Otherwise it will start to lock or at least have a lot of friction. I only pull it outward while feeding. Then go back to atc type belaying

I use one and find it fairly easy to pay out rope until it locks after weighting the rope. Then, you have to use your thumb to push up and release the tension until there is some slack again.

It is a great device for belaying a 2nd and toproping. Belaying a leader takes some practice and is probably easier to do if you use an ATC or GriGri or another device

As with any new device, it'll take a couple of climbs to get the feel for the Smart.

Once you're used to belaying with a thumb under the lever, it feels very natural and intuitive. Feeding slack is fast and smooth with a bit of thumb/lever pressure.

i'm still not crazy about doing lots of lowering with the Smart, but otherwise it's rad.

EDIT: also, your choice of biner can hugely affect one's opinion of the Smart and makes all the difference in the world when it comes to predictable locking and feeding.

Fortunately: mountainproject.com/v/mammu…

saltlick wrote:As with any new device, it'll take a couple of climbs to get the feel for the Smart. Once you're used to belaying with a thumb under the lever, it feels very natural and intuitive. Feeding slack is fast and smooth with a bit of thumb/lever pressure. i'm still not crazy about doing lots of lowering with the Smart, but otherwise it's rad.

Lowering was really jerky when I first started using the Smart but I can now lower fairly smoothly.

it depends on the rope really ...

with thin slick supple ropes you can feed it just like an ATC

with thicker fuzzier stiffer ropes you basically have to use the thumb under the catch

however if you do use the latter ... keep the thumb off the catch unless you are feeding the rope, same as keeping the thumb off the cam on the grigri unless fast feeding

more than once ive seen someone keep the thumb on the catch and when the climber falls have it a bit open and/or try to hold without the brake hand moving down the rope .... a slick rope can easily slide through and you can easily drop the climber

there been a few folks who have had burnt hands because of this

;)

the way i do is i always have my thumb under the lever but when im not feeding slack i keep it in breaking position by pushing it down rather than pulling up on lever. also, if you get one, as i highly suggest, get the alpine smart.

Dylan B. wrote: I disagree with this. Only get the Alpine version if you intend to multi-pitch. There are distinct disadvantages to the Alpine version. Because it is wide and rigid, it easily jams and crossloads on a biner, and requires a very large 'biner to function well. If you don't need to use it for two-rope rappels, or in guide mode, it's not worth those disadvantages. OTOH, if you are doing multipitch, it is a great all-in-one device, giving the added security of assisted braking for the leader, but without requiring you to carry a second device for rappelling.

I would agree. The Alpine Smart in very good if you are belaying in guide mode but if you never do so, I would use a standard Smart and carry an ATC for rapping and a backup belay device (ATCs are pretty light and small, after all.
Or just use your ATC and leave the Smart for single pitch routes...

Dylan B. wrote: I think you mean "former"--i.e. the slick skinny ropes that you mentioned first it is important to keep your thumb off the lever. WIth fat, fuzzy ropes it's also probably important, but less so.

no ...

im talking about regardless of rope ... if you use the thumb under catch method keep your thumb off the catch unless feeding

there was an incident here with one of the local climbing groups in the gym a few years ago ... the belayer kept her thumb on the catch and when the climber fell she tried to hold the fall without the hand coming off the device and solidly on the rope ... the climber finally got caught just off the deck after falling almost the entire length of the wall ... the belayer ended up with rope burns ... it was on a thick gym rope

to be absolutely honest ive made that mistake myself where even a half second too long with the thumb on the catch had the rope (a fuzzy 10mm) started zipping through when my climber fell ... i caught it right away and the climber fell perhaps an extra 10 ft or so, there was nothing to hit ... but this was after years of extensive smart use, all it takes is a split second ... all that belaying only with a smart made my lazy unconsciously with my brake hand

which is why even when using a smart/grigri ... one should spend a decent amount of time keeping in practice with an ATC

you see it all the time ... folks get lazy with the smart/grigri fast feed methods, and/or dont realize the danger of having the cam/latch open ... and folks go bye bye

it can happen to anyone, its card to fight a subconscious habit

Dylan B. wrote: I disagree with this. Only get the Alpine version if you intend to multi-pitch. There are distinct disadvantages to the Alpine version. Because it is wide and rigid, it easily jams and crossloads on a biner, and requires a very large 'biner to function well. If you don't need to use it for two-rope rappels, or in guide mode, it's not worth those disadvantages. OTOH, if you are doing multipitch, it is a great all-in-one device, giving the added security of assisted braking for the leader, but without requiring you to carry a second device for rappelling.

if the alpine smart is always jamming you need to use the right biner/rope ... and need more practice

i use it (and other smarts) all the time and rarely have issues ... even folks who have never used it before that i lend it to for practice dont have too many issues once you show em the right way

a trick with the alpine smart, or any ATC actually .... use the right slot for lead and the left slot for TR (right handed) ... this way you wear both sides evenly

;)

Dylan B. wrote:Dude in the video is a bit of a tool, but beginning at 7:25 is what I'm talking about: Don't get me wrong, I don't want to overstate the problem; the Alpine Smart is a great device and my go-to belay in most circumstances. After using the device for a bit, you do learn to make sure it doesn't jam when belaying. But it is a disadvantage that is lessened with the non-alpine version. Therefore, if you don't need guide mode or double-rope rappels, then there are advantages to using the single slot Smart.

well first of all when you belay with the device , even with just the hands on the rope (not the device) theres a bit of tension on the device the reduces the chance of the biner flipping ... a trick is to belay with a slight twist at an angle with the device as it holds the biner better in the belay loop

second of all even if it does flip you can quickly fix it ... its not ideal but with a williams you can pull in the rope just fine, and feed it with quite a bit of effort, at least enough till you can fix it... its not the end of the world

thirdly ... rock exotica makes a wide biner that will prevent it if you are concerned

rockexotica.com/products/ca…

fourthly .... i would always suggest to most climbers to get the alpine smart ... while it is a bit more expensive itll last "twice" as long as you can wear out both channels vs 1 ... not to mention that if a person gets serious with climbing they will do dual strand raps sooner or latter

and lastly that video is quite bad in that it gives dangerous advice ... over and over again the guy states that mammut recommends pushing out only when rapping ... but thats recommended for lead belaying as well, pushing up cancels the braking effect ...

not to mention he doesnt even lead belay properly



its like that "smartrockclimbing" site guy ..

just because one makes a youtube vid doesnt mean its right or any good

;)

if you have the money to shell out, i'd suggest getting the reg smart and the alpine smart in the thinner rope version. then you can use the reg smart in the gym where you won't be rappelling or belaying off the anchor but still have the other for multi-pitch or general rappelling. plus one may well be using thinner ropes for such climbing.
as a side note, i have lead belayed on the 9.5-7.5 version with a couple different 9.8s. that being said, don't only take my advice and, if you want to do this, test it yourself because it may not work with YOUR rope or YOUR biner

alpine smart

as usual this thread is useless without pics of gym climbers using their smarts to rap

;)

I onsighted a 5.7+ at the gym today and am highly offended.

Thanks very much for the replies, I'm going to pick one up.

I feel it would behoove Mammut to do a bit more to clarify some of these points in their written and video instruction. Video-wise, maybe something closer to Petzl's longer more in depth video on gri gri use that also includes a climber.

This video almost seems like it might be better than the official Mammut video, but then I don't speak German. It's a bit longer, not so brief and looks like they might be addressing some of the potential issues above pertaining to having the device open.

youtube.com/watch?v=YL1Tdwc…

cheers

Deno3 wrote:Thanks very much for the replies, I'm going to pick one up. I feel it would behoove Mammut to do a bit more to clarify some of these points in their written and video instruction. Video-wise, maybe something closer to Petzl's longer more in depth video on gri gri use that also includes a climber. This video almost seems like it might be better than the official Mammut video, but then I don't speak German. It's a bit longer, not so brief and looks like they might be addressing some of the potential issues above pertaining to having the device open. cheers

that DAV video actually shows a bad way to catch a lead fall with the smart IMO ...

note that the belayer is catching the call with the brake hand still on the device ....

it should come fully off the device onto the rope

as ive said above ... folks have had their lines zip through and burnt hands because they didnt not have a solid brake hand ...

all it takes is for a slight pressure on the thumb catch upwards as the climber is falling to defeat the braking ... this is something that no matter how experienced with the device, can happen very fast to anyone ... as i said it happened to me even after years of using all versions of the smart

when you are holding the rope in a fall with the thumb on the catch, you really only have 3 fingers on the rope (some might argue 4 but try it in real life and see) ... also the reaction of many folks is to grasp the device harder rather than the rope with those 3 fingers ... unless the hand moves off the device onto the rope there is no solid brake hand

the problem with all these assisted braking devices is that folks have a tendency to get lazy with their brake hand as the "device does the job" ... until one day it doesnt

and im generally a fan of these devices ... just recognized their limitations

;)

bearbreeder wrote: that DAV video actually shows a bad way to catch a lead fall with the smart IMO ... note that the belayer is catching the call with the brake hand still on the device .... it should come fully off the device onto the rope

Maybe they're just trying to show what the official video sort of shows

youtube.com/watch?feature=p…

catching fall screenshot

Deno3 wrote: Maybe they're just trying to show what the official video sort of shows youtube.com/watch?feature=p…

and yes this guy you dont know on da intraweb is telling you that the "official" mammut video is not good practice

ive been near dropped ... had the rope run through while belaying myself ... and know of at least 2 incidents where folks have gotten rope burn while holding the smart that way in a fall ...

now its possible that they were pushing the smart slightly upwards at the time of the fall feeding ... but despite mammut declaration that you shouldnt do this ... the difference between "push out" and "push out and slightly up" is minimal and most folks wont notice they are making a mistake

here is the smart at the moment of the fall being "caught" in the video ... you will notice that there is no effective brake hand

mammut official

also if youve used the smart with thin supple slick ropes at the bottom of the range ... some times they wont even lock up properly !!! ... i remember belaying someone on a ~9mm single once ... and even lowering em i would need to treat the smart like an ATC as it wouldnt lock at all ... despite the regular alpine smart being rated for 8.9-10.5mm

Jim has also done tests where he tests the braking power of various devices ... as you can see they arent absolute, they all start slipping at a certain point ...

so if you try to catch a fall off the first/second bolt on a thin slick rope .... or a large factor fall without a solid brake hand, the rope might just zip through

note this was tested on the thin version smart ... the "normal" alpine thicker one would have worse braking performance on a 9mm rope ...

Hand Force/belay Force 9mm rope.

so yes this anonymous breeder of intraweb bears is saying that dead elephant is "wrong" in this regard ... dats the wonders of da intrawebz for ya

=P

cheers for the response bear that's valuable feedback. Note I'm not trying to make any claims about how to use the device, I've just been musing over the instructions. As I touched on above I feel they could do a bit more in that dept.

I notice even the method shown for the 'taking in rope' position (loosely letting go of brake hand to slide it back up) is something that I've never seen anyone claim is a smart thing to do with any device, nor personally would I use or want someone belaying me to use - even with a gri gri.

have a good one.

bearbreeder wrote: and yes this guy you dont know on da intraweb is telling you that the "official" mammut video is not good practice ive been near dropped ... had the rope run through while belaying myself ... and know of at least 2 incidents where folks have gotten rope burn while holding the smart that way in a fall ...

I use the smart and I would disagree that new users of the device shouldn't catch as the manual instructs.

Read the manual and use your own head but my 2c:

• If your hand is on the lever when the climber falls: catch the climber with your hand there as Mammut shows but also be sure to reach and grab the brake side of the rope with your other hand, as one normally does.
• If your hand is below the device and on the brake side already when the climber falls: catch from there, again bringing your other hand down to grab the brake side with it.

I say this because it takes a little while to get used to transitioning your hand on and off the lever to the rope, I don't think that's something new users should be attempting initially...if at all.

costaserrano wrote: I use the smart and I would disagree that new users of the device shouldn't catch as the manual instructs. Read the manual and use your own head but my 2c: *If your hand is on the lever when the climber falls: catch the climber with your hand there as Mammut shows but also be sure to reach and grab the brake side of the rope with your other hand, as one normally does. *If your hand is below the device and on the brake side already when the climber falls: catch from there, again bringing your other hand down to grab the brake side with it. I say this because it takes a little while to get used to transitioning your hand on and off the lever to the rope, I don't think that's something new users should be attempting initially...if at all.

the problem with depending on the climber strand hand to come down below the brake and perform the catch is that

- when the slippage happened with the smart it happened so fast that the climbers can zip down many feet in a hearbeat ... the reaction time of the other hand coming down below the brake may not be fast enough

- there is a real possibility of fumbling .... you see this all the time with some folks when they attempt to use pull in slack with a grigri/smart on lead by bringing the climber side hand to the brake and shuffling the brake hand up ... their hand miss the rope and they fumble, this is more common the more of a slack loop there is out

- it does nothing to reinforce the principle of the brake hand ... which is the basis of ALL common belay devices in climbing

now theres nothing wrong with teaching to bring the other hand below the brake but it is not a substitute for proper brake hand proficiency with their main braking hand

;)

Disclaimer: This is not exactly how the instructions show how to do it

I 100% absolutely never have my break hand off the rope, even when i'm feeding slack. here is what i do:
anticipating needing to give slack, i slide my break hand down the rope a small bit, never letting my grip go. with my 4 fingers and palm still gripping the rope, i lift up on the lever with my thumb to feed the slack out and then return to breaking position. granted this requires you to always be paying 100% attention, especially when you cannot see the climber.

now, is there anything inherently wrong with this technique that is going to kill both my partner and me the next time i so much as touch the device?