ultra light down - is it worth it?

bearbreeder wrote:than this ...

That's hilarious that you included a Palm Pre...it was far easier to type (and easier to use, develop for) than the original iPhone... and it had 3G. It suffered the ill fate of being bundled with Sprint instead of one of the larger carriers like AT&T and didn't have Apple's cash (from selling a bunch of iPods) to bring refreshes to market fast enough. Also, with your little visual example, Apple did not bring a larger form factor iPhone until everyone else had already brought out 5 inch screen phones, botched its own map system with iOS 7, and finally allowed third-party keyboard (with swype) and mobile hotspot on iOS 8 after enough people bitched about those functionalities, so who's imitating who?

reboot wrote: That's hilarious that you included a Palm Pre...it was far easier to type (and easier to use, develop for) than the original iPhone... and it had 3G. It suffered the ill fate of being bundled with Sprint instead of one of the larger carriers like AT&T and didn't have Apple's cash (from selling a bunch of iPods) to bring refreshes to market fast enough. Also, with your little visual example, Apple did not bring a larger form factor iPhone until everyone else had already brought out 5 inch screen phones, botched its own map system with iOS 7, and finally allowed third-party keyboard (with swype) and mobile hotspot on iOS 8 after enough people bitched about those functionalities, so who's imitating who?

so how are all those palm pre copies doing .... shame that most smartphones sold now arent palm pre based in function or form ... hmmm

and now were comparing the "size" of our ... ummmm ... phones ... on MP now !!!

one merely has to walk into a cell phone shop to see the truth ...

bestbuy.ca/en-CA/category/b…



i dunno ... all these phones perform in form and function much like the original iphone ... and folks swap between them easily all the time

now lets hope that the next bit of fun is about quaking geese again .... 20 pages here we come !!!

;)

bearbreeder wrote: one merely has to walk into a cell phone shop to see the truth ... all these phones perform in form and function much like the original iphone

Yes, and I bet you are still typing on a QWERTY keyboard even though it was originally designed for a mechanical typewriter. So, what's your point again?

reboot wrote: Yes, and I bet you are still typing on a QWERTY keyboard even though it was originally designed for a mechanical typewriter. So, what's your point again?

is there every a point to MP?

first were required to not mention other companies producing the same gear or were "promoting knockoffs"

then were required to not even mention "trademarked" names on MP in the same sentence as alternative products or were "dishonest intellectual shills"

and now were measuring the size of our phones ...

think of all the poor quaking geezse !!!

actually i feel very hungry now ... im gonna eat some chinese BBQ duck (well you never know if its really duck in AZN restaurants) ...

be back for more fun in a jiffay !!

;)

bearbreeder wrote: how often do you wear your down (daily in town?) and wash it?

Yeah, I pretty much wore it all the time last winter. Sounds weird, but I washed it for the first time this winter. I tried to keep it clean - always wore sleeves under it to keep it from getting oily. I thought washing it often would just wear it out faster.

All in all, I just think it's not worth the money or weight savings. I had no idea it was essentially a one-season-use kind of product. Not that it's not still a good jacket - I still wear it all the time - it's just not the super-high-performance piece that I paid for. It was so amazingly warm and light last winter. It's still light, but not as warm.

Anson Call wrote: Yeah, I pretty much wore it all the time last winter. Sounds weird, but I washed it for the first time this winter. I tried to keep it clean - always wore sleeves under it to keep it from getting oily. I thought washing it often would just wear it out faster. All in all, I just think it's not worth the money or weight savings. I had no idea it was essentially a one-season-use kind of product. Not that it's not still a good jacket - I still wear it all the time - it's just not the super-high-performance piece that I paid for. It was so amazingly warm and light last winter. It's still light, but not as warm.

aaron ...

if you wear it daily youll need to wash it more often ... say every 3 months or so, perhaps even less depending on how much body oils, sweat and grime you get into it

all these tend to clump the down ... washing it properly can help restore some loft

and make sure you rinse it out well to get rid of any soap

in addition to the berghaus link i posted on the first page, here one from the patagucci blog on down care

thecleanestline.com/2011/06…

its a popular misconception that both down and rain jackets shouldnt be washed and dried ... they need to be to maintain their performance

of course washing it degreades it a bit every time ... there aint no such thing as free BBQ duck !!!

;)

i feel like i created a monster with this thread... iphones, what.

i like the video tho

jTaylor wrote:i feel like i created a monster with this thread... iphones, what...

You just happened to get a couple of posters ( most notably bearf*cker) that are never wrong, can't handle differing viewpoints, and absolutely MUST have the last word. It's like arguing with Majid, except without the crazy arrows. Sorry for the thread drift. Now, back to the subject...

Anson Call wrote:Come on guys, I don't care about the history of operating systems... Tell me more about down. How come no one tells you your UL down is only going to have "800" fill power for one or two seasons??...

I haven't had that problem, though I've heard of it when a couple friends bought some so-so down products. If you buy a quality down (NOT just one with a high fill-power rating) it should stay warm & fluffy for a decade or so. I have 2 puffy's & 3 down sleeping bags, all between 4-15 years old, and they are all still super fluffy & warm. I still occasionally use my father's old North Face down bag (from back in the mid 80's when they were still quality) and it still lofts up nice (though, to back up bearf*ckers point, it isn't as warm b/c it doesn't fit as well).

Maybe if one lives in a very humid area the down never fully dries out, but here in the desert & up in the mountains, a quality down product, properly cared for, shouldn't lose it's loft for a long time, especially not in 1 year.

I honestly have never found a synthetic jacket that is as warm as down, and I'm a big baby in the cold. Also, though it's semi off topic, with sleeping bags it's not even close. On a cold night I would rather sleep in a 20 degree WM down bag than a -20 synthetic from any brand.

That's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

oh goody ...

this serial molester of poor innocent bears now needs to get in the last word =P

one thing to keep in mind is that many of us dont use our sleeping bags or even down jacket daily for hours at a time, 300+ days a year

the basic rule of gear is that nothing last forever and the more you use something, the more itll wear out ... even "quality products"

heres a bit of an alternative and controversial viewpoint, but im sure many folks will agree its one that should be heard

she spends 250+ nights out in the wilderness per year and owns 4+ WM sleeping bags, including one thats seen 900+ days of use ... you can see her mileage on the sidebar on the right ... i suggest reading her "what gear breaks" page as she puts alot of use on her gear

Sleeping bag: I have been using Western Mountaineering sleeping bags for the first half of my outdoor career and depending on the climate I was alternating between the Summerlite, the Ultralite, the Versalite and the Puma. Generally speaking the bags are high quality and very durable. After about one year of constant use the slider of the zipper can wear out. As all WM bags have two sliders and usually only the top one that is most used wears out this is not a life-threatening problem. The slider can be replaced very easily if you have the appropriate spare. After about half a year of constant use the down in the bag will start clumping and thus reduce the warming capacity of the bag. Washing will restore part of the loft, but still it is my experience that no matter how and how often you wash the bags, after one year of constant use they will have reduced loft so much that the original temperature rating will not be achieved any more. After 2 years of constant use the down has so much deteriorated that the bag is practically useless and even washing will not restore it any more..
After a lot of problems with clumping down due to extended use and/or humid conditions I have now changed to synthetic quilts. I am using a BPL 240 quilt for 3 seasons and a Enlightened Prodigy 20 for colder temperatures. I have used both quilts for around 300 nights without any significant deterioration of loft or any other substantial defects. I realise that about every outdoor book and forum will tell you differently, but in my personal experience synthetic is much more durable than down.


christine-on-big-trip.blogs…

here is WM position on DWR down (click on the link to see the entire spiel) and the expected longevity of their bags ....

We design our sleeping bags to last in the range of 25 to 40 years or perhaps longer if cared for properly and average amount of use (i.e. not a guide who may spend 200 nights a year in a sleeping bag, but normal people with careers and families who go out on many weekend camping trips and take two or three backpacking trips in a year). With any new technology we want to make sure it will stand the test of time before using it to manufacture our sleeping bags.

backpackinglight.com/cgi-bi…

basically the "last for decades", even with one of the most well respected manufacturers, is predicated on usage ... even "quality" gear may wear out with usage ... WM is a well respected brand using top materials, but nothing last forever with use

why does this matter? .... well if yr wearing your high fill powered down all the time in the city and even to sleep (which i wear my EB downlight for as ive got no heating) ... then you may be putting quite a few usage days ... which means more loss loft, more of a need to wash, and more degradation each time ...

one trend ive noticed if that folks wear their high fill powered down name brand jackets quite a bit more than the old heavy bomber ones as they are "sweater" replacements and are light enough to wear indoors, not to mention theyre trendy ... this combined with the UL shell fabrics, the more sensitive high fill power down, and the lack of understanding of washing it ...

i would not be surprised if they wear out quite a bit quicker

now where did that little bear run off to ...

;)

Chris Schmidt wrote:For the most part the only people who truly need the performance of ultra light down get it free or are loaded. For the average joe it is certainly not worth it, unless it pro-deal or 40-60% off. You are paying a lot of money for the hip factor even if you don't want to admit it.

This +1

The environs where one would truly need an UL down jacket are fairly limited IMO. I have one but the times I use it are limited to perhaps 5% of my outings. Given that need/use ratio the asking price of many of these pieces is comical to me, esp since they're no warmer than a 200WT fleece if that.

As with most things, finding them on clearance makes the piece much more tolerable. (I paid $85 for my 800FP DownTek) At that price I'm ok with it's short comings.

If a particular piece fits a NEED very well than the "worth it" factor goes up immensely. I've paid some astronomical prices for Shoeller pants in the past because the particular fit, fabric and design by a manufacturer was EXACTLY what I needed.

These days though, I usually subscribe to the buy it cheap and stack it deep.

Regarding "rewarding inovation" by purchasing a certain brand, I think that has limited validity. Each company has some stand out pieces that MAY, at one point, have been innovative but more often I think marketing and brand loyalty props up more pieces to "Cult Status" than is really justified. As is often the case (and yes, Apple, MS etc also did this) the originator of an idea is often not the most successful at it. Someone else usually take the idea and improves upon it, markets it better and then THAT piece gets "cult status".