ultra light down - is it worth it?

I've had a mtn hardwear ghost whisper for a few years, and as far as I can tell it feels nearly as warm as when i originally got it - but i highly doubt that to be the case, i'll blame my weak memory for this thought.

It's been a great jacket, served it's intended purpose and beyond but in the end I am not sure if I want to replace it w/ another.

I don't want to replace it w/ the same model since the loft is totally lacking (which happened fairly quick in the grand scheme of things) after so much use and stuffing here and there. It seems pretty impossible to get it back to any condition half as puffy as when i first got it.

I've done the whole tennis ball and dryer thing a bunch, but it seems like if i really wanted to get it like new i'd have to tediously pluck every little damn square to separate the down.

so it got me wondering - are these jackets worth their value? Wouldn't it just be better to get a slightly heavier jacket w/ more down since those don't seem to vary so greatly when new or used?

i'd say overall in the future if i got a new one i'd probably reserve its uses much more for specific light weight minded situations, but it is a comfortable coat around town and through many variable temps.

Here a little known fact about high fill powered down ...

Ryan Jordan
( ryan - BPL STAFF - M)

Locale:
Greater Yellowstone

NEW Re: Re: Re: Introduction to Outdoor Retailer Summer Market 2008 on 08/10/2008 08:04:56 MDT

Bill et al.,

I spoke at length with IDFL yesterday about down testing.

None of their tests stimulate real world testing. 900 fp in a test is going to be a pipe dream in the field, because they steam wash and dry the down to nearly zero humidity before doing the test. Ironically, this most recent iteration of test methods was designed to determine the maximum possible fill power for down rather than what it will look like in the field.

Interestingly as a side note, we did some 900 fp testing of down a few years ago on two manufacturer's 900 bags. We cut the bags open and sent them to IDFL. Neither made the claimed 900 spec (they tested 830-870 using the steam method). What was more dramatic was that when each down (which clearly came from different sources as evidenced by visual inspection) was subjected to 50% humidity, the differences were pretty dramatic. One bag tested at 770 fp, the other at 680 fp. It seems that at least these two sources of 900 down had feathers in it that were not resilient in response to humidity.

The kicker is that we ran the same test next to down taken from a manufacturer's 750 fp bag. at 50% humidity, the fp was 720. Why? It had more feathers that were stiff enough to preserve the loft in moist conditions.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=39920

One of the reasons patagucci started using their version of DWR down was to preserve the fill power under real world humidity

Whether its worth it is your call

Personally i think down thats above 800 fill is more marketing than anything in real world conditions

The fit of the jacket has as much effect on the "warmth" of a jacket than the fill power

;)

great info, MP never lets me down - thanks for sharing that!

jTaylor wrote: ...so it got me wondering - are these jackets worth their value?...

Yes, I think they are very much worth it, especially if you are a baby in the cold like me.

Sure, manufacturers have been massaging fill-power ratings for years. Using fill-power rating alone is a poor way to locate quality down. I've had great luck with: westernmountaineering

My wife has a fancy ultra light down jacket. She would tell you it's the shit!.. Well she won't cuss so maybe it's great!

I don't know if I really like down either. My 800 fill OR puffy was great, but after just one year of hard use it seems like it's already lost significant puffiness and warmth. This is despite my best efforts to keep it clean and dry. I've tried to do the tumble dry w/tennis balls thing, and I even washed it once with Nikwax down wash (it was a pain to re-fluff it after washing).

All this, and I'm also perpetually worried that I'm going to rip a hole in the Pertex face fabric and send feathers flying. Even the tiniest little pinholes have resulted in lost feathers.

On the other hand, I have a synthetic LaSpo jacket that I wear just about every day for three seasons of the year. It's still good as new, despite washing it whenever it gets dirty. Also, if it happens to get a little hole in it, I don't lose any insulation.

This all makes me think that UL down 1)isn't worth the money and 2)isn't worth the hassle. I'm mostly sport cragging anyways, so who cares if your jacket is half an ounce heavier?

Since were talking synthetic down.. I have a Arcteryx Dually that's 7 years old. I bought it after the second day ever ice climbing in Johnston Canyon when temps were near 0F. The coat is just as warm today as it was back then.

This guy's blog has a lot good info on down jackets:

coldthistle.blogspot.com/20…

An OR 800 fill power Incandescent jacket apparently only has 7 oz of fill weight while a Montbell Permafrost has the same fill power but 24 oz of fill weight, more than 3x as much.

You can probably guess which is warmer and which will hold its loft better over time. It's heavier of course, and you definitely won't find it heavily-marked down at STP a year later, like you will the Incandescent.

Christian wrote:This guy's blog has a lot good info on down jackets: coldthistle.blogspot.com/20… An OR 800 fill power Incandescent jacket apparently only has 7 oz of fill weight while a Montbell Permafrost has the same fill power but 24 oz of fill weight, more than 3x as much. You can probably guess which is warmer and which will hold its loft better over time. It's heavier of course, and you definitely won't find it heavily-marked down at STP a year later, like you will the Incandescent.

Thats just plain wrong

A permafrost weights 24 oz and has 9 oz of down fill

montbell.us/products/disp.p…

The other secret about high fill powered down is that if yr using it quite a bit then you should wash it more frequently

However every time you wash it it degrades the oils in it slightly ... This can be minimized by using the proper soap and doing a good long rinse cycle

But if you wear that down jacket every day you should be washing it every few months

Read this for myths about washing

community.berghaus.com/know…

At the end of the day though these arent the bomber down parkas with 500-700 fill down with durable shells that folks use to wear in the old days ... The ones that last decades with regular use

UL down jackets simply arent built to last as long ... Thats the price u pay for the weight savings

;)

Light, durable, inexpensive.

You get to pick two of these. Although it sounds like these new sub-pound jackets are expensive AND not durable. They are certainly the "must have" item for many outdoors folk. I hope they are profitable for the companies making them (so they are in a financially sound position to make the next must have item, hopefully something that we all really do need).

I'm glad Bear picked up that 7 oz vs 24 oz error. I was thinking "24 oz of high fill down would stuff a 0 degree sleeping bag."

some great info in this thread, thanks for your input everyone

Oops, I guess 24 oz was the weight of the whole jacket.

Light, durable, inexpensive. You get to pick two of these.

My father always likes to talk about this in the context of WWII tanks, which illustrated the different choices pretty well. Cheap, fast, good. Pick two.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proje…

Gunkiemike wrote:Although it sounds like these new sub-pound jackets are expensive AND not durable. They are certainly the "must have" item for many outdoors folk.

I wonder why sometimes. My down sweater (the classic patagonia design) is right at the lower end of warmth I'd accept out of a down garment, and the UL designs have even less warmth. If I need only a little bit of warmth, I'll get that out of my baselayer, possibly a thin fleece, and a wind layer.

i've found my ghost whisper to be surprisingly durable. The only damage it has on it is from dropping an ember on it, which would of done the same damage to any other high end piece of clothing that isn't leather or something heavy/burly.

no rips, no leaky down, just not lofty. My brother's western mountaineering (that he has worn much less but seems to be stuffed w/ more down) leaks feathers every time i see him wearing it.. I can't tell if they over stuffed it or if the feathers are just extra sharp.

jTaylor wrote:...My brother's western mountaineering (that he has worn much less but seems to be stuffed w/ more down) leaks feathers every time i see him wearing it.. I can't tell if they over stuffed it or if the feathers are just extra sharp.

Check out their 'Vapor' jacket. It's full of that awesome WM down, but has a Gore Dryloft shell, which makes it much more durable & down-proof. It is a bit heavier & less stuffable than other UL down jackets, but still lighter & more packable than most non-down items. I have been beating the hell out of mine for almost 10 years now, and it is still super warm. Check it out here: WM Vapor

Also IMHO down's effectiveness depends largely on where you live. In super humid environments it can take too long for any wet down to dry out. Out here in the desert, or up high at altitude, it works MUCH better than synthetics. If you live in Seattle it might not be as good of an option.

It's worth it if you are weight-conscious or space-conscious in your pack. Such as if you plan to take it up a multi-pitch route, or if you're a backpacker. But if you're just looking for a belay jacket and/or a casual jacket like 90% of the people wearing Ghost Whisperers and Nanopuffs seem to, I don't understand why you would buy high-fill Down. Just get a cheap, heavy synthetic jacket (or a bulky 600-fill down jacket or something like that) and just carry an extra pound or two to the crag. The jacket will be half the cost, last twice as long, and be more useful when wet and in humidity.

UL jackets are fairly "durable" and "warm"for the weight, emphasis on the weight ... they will never be as abrasion resistant as a "normal" down jacket with thicker shell material

there are certain folks such as fast and light climbers, UL backpackers, and folks who push the limits who really benefit from em

but these days they are more fashion accessories than anything else ...

for a jacket that will see years (even decades) of hard cragging and city use, just get something with a durable shell

UL down jackets are also commoditized ... even costco sells 800 fill jackets now of their own kirkland brand

in fact, providing it fits you, some of these department store brands jackets are quite good .... many folks use uniqlo, ll bean, cabelas, etc ... down jackets as cheaper alternatives to name brands just fine at a portion of the cost

one thing to look for is the cluster ratio when they dont list the down fill power ... 90/10 is usually ~650-750 fill in these cheaper jackets ...

IDFL

the other thing is that there is minimal practical difference between duck and goose down providing they are of the same fill power ... some quality manufacturers such as Rab use duck down in some of their 600-700 fill products ... not to mention that canada goose has been using quality duck down in the jackets for decades for antarctic expeditions for decades

the importance of fit really cant be underestimated ... a snugger fit is generally better, just like in a loose sleeping bag, dead space takes body heat to warm up and allows the warmth to circulate out like a pump if the fit and seals are poor

ive had partners whose properly fitting 650 fill jackets were warmer than a loose fitting 800 fill jackets of similar loft

in windy environments a more wind resistant and thicker shell can also make a difference ... the reason why canada goose uses stiff heavy durable fabrics and lower fill power down (~600-700) on their expedition jackets is to prevent the compression effects of high winds on the down, which can be significant (there is an article and test about it on backpackinglight, unfortunately its behind a paywall) ...

it all depends on what you are looking for ... do you need something that weights as little as possible and packs as small as possible for your fun .. then UL down jackets are the "warmest" for the weight ... just be aware of their limitations

does weight not matter as much and you want something that is more durable and will take abuse and laugh right back at your ... and probably costs less ... then get a normal down jacket with a durable shell

or are you looking for something to look "outdoorsy" and cool while walking the dawg to da starbucks ... then one of those $$$$ branded down sweaters is just for you !!!

one thing to remember is that the outdoor clothing industry is driven by marketing ... most of the well working products are commoditized (notice how mec, cabelas, ll bean, everyone else makes perfectly functional R1,nanopuff, houdini, etc copies) ... so marketers need to come out with marginal "improvements" and things that make their products "special" to justify the premiums

and makes sure the gullible know that these minor improvements are "revolutionary" ... happens every year

;)

bearbreeder wrote:one thing to remember is that the outdoor clothing industry is driven by marketing ... most of the well working products are commoditized (notice how mec, cabelas, ll bean, everyone else makes perfectly functional R1,nanopuff, houdini, etc copies) ... so marketers need to come out with marginal "improvements" and things that make their products "special" to justify the premiums and makes sure the gullible know that these minor improvements are "revolutionary" ... happens every year ;)

Do you mean the companies that invented the now commoditized product? Thankfully the market isn't entirely made up of consumers like you or there wouldn't be innovation. I'd rather buy fromy Patagonia because when LL Bean files bankruptcy again new products will still enter the market.

Ray Pinpillage wrote: Do you mean the companies that invented the now commoditized product? Thankfully the market isn't entirely made up of consumers like you or there wouldn't be innovation. I'd rather buy fromy Patagonia because when LL Bean files bankruptcy again new products will still enter the market.

well ray ... looking for your weekend troll?

if you want to pay for that "innovation" thats up to you

of course if you want to "put down" folks who dont want to pay that "brand premium" ... thats what yr on MP for anyways =P

i guess that folks should only buy apples as all other computers, tablets and smartphones are just commoditized products which are basically copies of the mac, iphone and ipad

when exactly did ll bean file for bankruptcy ... perhaps you can provide me with the date so i can look it up

;)

I didn't put anyone down, just pointing out that it's not marketing when the high price offering is the originator. Your examples specity brand name products and encourage knock offs.

Ray Pinpillage wrote:I didn't put anyone down, just pointing out that it's not marketing when the high price offering is the originator. Your examples specity brand name products and encourage knock offs.

lol ... so im "encouraging knockoffs" no on MP !!!

everyone knockoffs everybody in the outdoor industry ... do you only use a nanopuff? ... all the other 60g/m synth jackets would be a "knockoff" including ones such as the rab xenon, montbell, etc ...

metolius TCUs knockoffs wired bliss ... id love to hear you disparage them and their users as knockoffs





you do realize that MEC makes perfectly serviceable and well respected gear ... and they publish the results of their labour and environmental standards, and give 1% back to the planet ....

and here you are throwing around "knockoff"

everyone knockoffs everyone in the outdoor industry

again i await the reference to the ll bean bankruptcy which you stated ... im looking forward to the report

oh and i take it you only use genuine apple products, not those "knockoff" ipads, iphones, macs ... you know the kind that runs windows and android ... you wouldnt be a hypocrit would you now?

with your participation i anticipate this thread will run to 20+ pages of trolls

;)