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Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

Frank Stein · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205

The ATC is more intuitive, I will grant that. However, if you screw up with a GriGri, you can recover. If you screw up with an ATC, you cannot. Like I said, I was dropped with an ATC, the belayer tried to recover, but to no avail.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Theres nothing intuitive about an ATC

Its an artificial device that folks need to learn how to use

However it requires much more attention to be paid to the brake hand, and errors tend to be corrected more quickly one way or another

The problem with lowering with a grigri is that new folks yank the cam wide open and try to let the rope slide through their hands ... One the rope develops enough momentum it can zip through an open cam burning the belayers hand

Teach new folks to

- use only 2 fingers to pull the lever, you dont need more than that ... Much less likely to grab the handle and gank it this way

- find the friction point for the lower

- shuffle the brake hand, similar to lead belaying, rather letting it slide

- that you dont need to be cool by lowering your partner at high speed ... You can lower slowly or even a bit jerky the first few times if it means you keep a solid brake hand

Unfortunately many belayers dont develop proper technique with a grigri ... Because the "grigri always catches"

Theres been accident after accident posted on this thread

Grigris are great devices for "just in case" or where the line is constantly weighted for long periods ... Not as a bandaid for poor technique

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

It's been brought to my attention that, due to the title of my original post, it looks like I'm blaming the belayer for what happened. I want to be clear that I don't blame any of the belayers in these cases.

In all the cases the belayer did everything right, if you consider "right" to be following all the instructions. Petzl emphasizes keeping your brake-hand on the brake-strand, but we should all now know that this problem can occur even with the brake-hand in place.

For those of you who had/have problems with my "delivery", I apologize. As I'm sure you can understand, this accident really got me upset. I got angry because it happened AGAIN, and I knew how to prevent it, but I hadn't done anything. I also was upset because it happened in "my" backyard, so to speak, and to someone I consider a friend.

When my GF dropped me 60' she was devastated, even though I wasn't hurt. It took her a long time to get over it. To see someone you love hit the ground... makes me feel like I've been stabbed just to think about it.

John

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

Oh, one more thing for you guys to masticate...

We all want an attentive belayer but in this Grab-The-Climbers-Strand (GTCS) scenario, an inattentive belayer may be safer. Why?

Assuming the brake-hand is in place, an inattentive belayer looking at his shoes doesn't have time to react before the Gri-gri locks. Thus, it's basically impossible to grab the rope at the wrong time.

An attentive belayer, anticipating/seeing a fall, will brace themselves. Since they expect to be pulled upward or into the wall, they grab the climbers-strand to support themselves. (This is true of ATC devices too.) This Tug-of-War stance is a natural reflex, IMO, and will be more pronounced in lighter-weight belayers.

redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
John Byrnes wrote:It's been brought to my attention that, due to the title of my original post, it looks like I'm blaming the belayer for what happened. I want to be clear that I don't blame any of the belayers in these cases. In all the cases the belayer did everything right, if you consider "right" to be following all the instructions. Petzl emphasizes keeping your brake-hand on the brake-strand, but we should all now know that this problem can occur even with the brake-hand in place. For those of you who had/have problems with my "delivery", I apologize. As I'm sure you can understand, this accident really got me upset. I got angry because it happened AGAIN, and I knew how to prevent it, but I hadn't done anything. I also was upset because it happened in "my" backyard, so to speak, and to someone I consider a friend. When my GF dropped me 60' she was devastated, even though I wasn't hurt. It took her a long time to get over it. To see someone you love hit the ground... makes me feel like I've been stabbed just to think about it. John
Why aren't you blaming the belayers? Its a belayer error that they are using the device incorrectly or taught incorrectly. The grigri is just a device...
redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
John Byrnes wrote:Oh, one more thing for you guys to masticate... We all want an attentive belayer but in this Grab-The-Climbers-Strand (GTCS) scenario, an inattentive belayer may be safer. Why? Assuming the brake-hand is in place, an inattentive belayer looking at his shoes doesn't have time to react before the Gri-gri locks. Thus, it's basically impossible to grab the rope at the wrong time. An attentive belayer, anticipating/seeing a fall, will brace themselves. Since they expect to be pulled upward or into the wall, they grab the climbers-strand to support themselves. (This is true of ATC devices too.) This Tug-of-War stance is a natural reflex, IMO, and will be more pronounced in lighter-weight belayers.
Its only a natural reaction if they develop bad habits. I climb with plenty of lighter climbers and they don't grab the climber side to brace themselves when they fly into the air
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
redlude97 wrote: Why aren't you blaming the belayers? Its a belayer error that they are using the device incorrectly or taught incorrectly. The grigri is just a device...
+1
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Go anywhere where a Grigri is in use and you'll see people grabbing hard with their feeding hand when they get lifted. And that includes some of the world's most experienced climbers. For example, at 6:02 in the Grigri instructional video we see

Feeding hand grasp

As Chris Sharma's girlfriend and partner, she is about as experienced with a Grigri as you can possibly be, but she's holding on to the rope hard with the feeding hand as she's being lifted---indeed that grasp is anticipatory; you can see that she hasn't even dropped her brake hand yet. As John says, it is a natural ingrained reaction and you can see it anywhere you go.

If gripping the rope with the feeding hand caused Grigri failure every time, of course everyone would know about it (and the device itself would have been re-engineered). But of course that's not the case; only very occasionally does this happen, and it appears that a majority of Grigri users have no idea this could be a problem. In my experience, most people don't look at the instructions or read the warnings that come with their device, and often, even if they are aware of the warnings, they discount them as the irrelevant but necessary pronouncements of a manufacturer trying to avoid liability suits.

Should we blame belayers for not knowing about this or that device idiosyncrasy? In the case of this Grigri issues, there would be a huge amount of blame to hand out, and even in this thread we have people who are saying it doesn't matter because you can hold a fall with the cam disengaged. This is case of let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

How then do you get the attention in a culture that can be pretty casual about device use? You shout. That's what John did. Maybe he gets some (ill-considered, in my opinion) flak for that, but that's what it takes.

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
rgold wrote:How then do you get the attention in a culture that can be pretty casual about device use? You shout. That's what John did. Maybe he gets some (ill-considered, in my opinion) flak for that, but that's what it takes.
You make some good points and so did John (eventually). People - myself included - were not so much complaining about John's underlying message, but were complaining about how it was presented (interestingly it was not about saying things "nicely" either as Greg D seemed to interpret, but hey, I'm not surprised that Greg read the situation that way because he likes to communicate with as much bluster and machismo as humanely possible...though he often has some useful points).

I actually think that this argument has overall been pretty productive because it gets people thinking about what they are doing (wrong or right). And for me that is the key to staying safe as the years go by, that is, you take what you know and then constantly reevaluate and update your practices to become safer as your knowledge base grows. However, part of that process is knowing that everything we do as climbers has caveats. In this case, the weight of the climber, the situation, etc. all dictate whether it is okay at any given time to hold onto the climber end of the rope. Thus I take real issue with anyone giving out advice - especially if they are an admin - that forcefully states a rule that must always be followed. I think this is a dangerous way to operate because (a) no rule is ever right or wrong 100% of the time, and (b) making 100% rules causes people to operate by rules instead of thinking, which is almost always a bad idea.

Anyway, I will give thanks to John for bringing the point up because his post has given me something useful to think about with my partners.
Cheers.
rob.calm · · Loveland, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 630
John Byrnes wrote:Oh, one more thing for you guys to masticate... We all want an attentive belayer but in this Grab-The-Climbers-Strand (GTCS) scenario, an inattentive belayer may be safer. Why? Assuming the brake-hand is in place, an inattentive belayer looking at his shoes doesn't have time to react before the Gri-gri locks. Thus, it's basically impossible to grab the rope at the wrong time. An attentive belayer, anticipating/seeing a fall, will brace themselves. Since they expect to be pulled upward or into the wall, they grab the climbers-strand to support themselves. (This is true of ATC devices too.) This Tug-of-War stance is a natural reflex, IMO, and will be more pronounced in lighter-weight belayers.
Summed up nicely by JT on rockclimbing.com years ago. "Most accidents involving a Gri-gri would not have occurred, if the belayer had been unconscious."

rob.calm
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
rob.calm wrote: Summed up nicely by JT on rockclimbing.com years ago. "Most accidents involving a Gri-gri would not have occurred, if the belayer had been unconscious." rob.calm
That's a line beautiful right there...
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
rgold wrote: As Chris Sharma's girlfriend and partner, she is about as experienced with a Grigri as you can possibly be,
Quite clearly NOT, if that's her in that picture.
ChefMattThaner · · Lakewood, co · Joined May 2013 · Points: 246

So according to that "statistic" you have a better chance of staying alive with an unconscious belayer using a gri gri than one awake and actively belyaing. Which is just another way to say that the equipment is the complete opposite of intuitive. It also means that asking a "noob" to belay you with the more complicated, more often misused device is insane. The features of the gri gri laugh in the face of human instinct and really simply asking for misuse.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
ChefMattThaner wrote:So according to that "statistic" you have a better chance of staying alive with an unconscious belayer using a gri gri than one awake and actively belyaing. Which is just another way to say that the equipment is the complete opposite of intuitive. It also means that asking a "noob" to belay you with the more complicated, more often misused device is insane. The features of the gri gri laugh in the face of human instinct and really simply asking for misuse.
Are you trippin?
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
rob.calm wrote: Summed up nicely by JT on rockclimbing.com years ago. "Most accidents involving a Gri-gri would not have occurred, if the belayer had been unconscious." rob.calm
this is the main reason the tool comes with me to the crag, having known someone who died from the belayer(ATC) getting knocked out by rockfall reinforces my habit quite a bit
Andy Whicker · · Ogden, UT · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 31

I prefer when someone belays me with a Gri Gri or similar. I just like the idea of a fail safe mode.

Jon H · · PC, UT · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 118
engineer1984 wrote:I prefer when someone belays me with a Gri Gri or similar. I just like the idea of a fail safe mode.
Surely by now you must realize that there is no fail safe mode? Every GriGri accident posted here is attributable to belayers who thought there was a "fail safe mode" and used the device incorrectly, leading to a horrible injury/death for their climber.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Jon H wrote: Surely by now you must realize that there is no fail safe mode? Every GriGri accident posted here is attributable to belayers who thought there was a "fail safe mode" and used the device incorrectly, leading to a horrible injury/death for their climber.
I consider it a fail safe for me in that all you have to do is keep your brake hand firmly on the brake end of the rope. That's it.
Andy Whicker · · Ogden, UT · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 31

Actually, I was thinking about it some more.

I'm going to create a Change.org petition promoting new laws that make it illegal to manufacture the Gri Gri. (With a grandfather clause - see below on black market)

I'm also going to lobby congress with the support of the major manufacturers that compete against Petzl.

Once the Stop Gri Gri movement starts gaining momentum, I'll buy as many as I possibly can to ready myself for the black market mark up. Maybe we could start a social media campaign for people to send us their Gri Gri's on the idea of promoting safety throughout the climbing community.

To help gain the necessary public backing, I'll have to prove that the Gri Gri is unsafe and promotes bad techniques so I'll be showcasing all the things that have been mentioned in MP.com ad infinitum via one of those cheap infomercials where people can't do simple tasks like opening a can of beans without cutting themselves.

If I'm successful, it might also be a good idea to hire attorneys and have Petzl pay out money to every injury or death that occurred while a Gri Gri was being used.

If it works, we can move on to other similar devices.

Who's with me?

Cheers,

ChefMattThaner · · Lakewood, co · Joined May 2013 · Points: 246
Morgan Patterson wrote: I consider it a fail safe for me in that all you have to do is keep your brake hand firmly on the brake end of the rope. That's it.
That's funny, your fail safe for a gri gri is exactly what the normal way to use an ATC. No bells and whistles needed. If you consider that a fail safe why complicate matters for noob when that is all you have to teach them to use an ATC??
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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