Indian Creek ATV Trail EA Comment period closes soon

Merlin wrote: :) It's probably because the atmosphere prevents a huge range in wavelength from reaching the ground. phy.olemiss.edu/~cavaglia/c… If you are interested in solar power and bored google "quantum dots solar power" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quant… It's my understanding that people are working towards configurations which replace a lot of the really nasty stuff that goes into conventional solar cells with less toxic stuff via this approach. nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/5901…

Starfag

BLM lands are multi-use lands and that includes in recreational pursuits. None the less, some activities are, at least to a degree, incompatible with one or the other different enjoyments. I like to camp in the desert and enjoy the natural desert environment. When an ATV loudly speeds by my camp raising a cloud of dust or goes out for just one more ride at 7PM from a nearby site, it detracts from what I value in the desert and the peace and quiet of the evening. Yet I more or less put up with it because I believe I don't have exclusive rights to the desert. However, the use of ATV's is becoming more and more pervasive not only near population centers like Moab where many forms of outdoor recreation exist side by side but further and further into the outback. I haven't taken a close look at where the trail will be situated in the Indian Creek area, but I think the experience of rock climbing and that of ATV use are incompatible. I think most climbers would be opposed to ATV travel near a popular or any climbing area or individual route because it detracts from the climbing experience. But I would venture to say that ATVer's would in general have no objection to the activities of rock climbers near their playgrounds because it doesn't spoil their activity. By and large, and the fact of the matter is, ATV's in the desert negatively impact nearly all other recreational pursuits. Are those who ride aware of this? Motor sound, odors and dust carry. But what pursuits negatively effect or detract from their activities? They degrade the experience of others just as RVer's using generators between 5 and 8 PM in a campground spoil the evening of their camping neighbors. I think those who enjoy motorized use of the land should be able to do so within proper environmental limits. But then, I also believe in my right to silence and solitude without being pushed further and further away to find it, as if someone else's activity should take precedent over mine. What a conundrum! The Indian Creek sandstone walls have a long and established rock climbing history. Climbers and this area should not have to bear the intrusion of motorized sport as many of the multi-use BLM area's around Moab now must. Conflicting outdoor pursuits should be kept separate. I strongly encourage land managers to recognize and take into account the exclusive nature and incompatibility of motorized and non motorized use of the desert as part of overall land use policy.

The relevant questions when it comes to ATV (or really, any kind of usage) are "how much damage can one person do?" and "how many people consistently damage the resource?"
If one jerk ATVer can do more damage than 20 jerk climbers, and one jerk ATVer passes through the area more often than 20 jerk climbers, then maybe the area should be closed to ATVers. That said, if 80 jerk climbers passes through the area before 1 jerk ATVer does, maybe the area should be closed to climbers.

I have absolutely no problem with motorized travel that follows the laws. Its just that *all* human usage of the land needs to be managed, not just those that reaffirm our soul-climber biases. We cannot in the same breath complain about ATV usage in Indian Creek, and bemoan greater intervention by the BLM at our campsites and climbing areas.

tim wrote: Starfag

It's Dr. Starfag pall.

Pine sap...It's an ignorant statement to refer to all ATVers as "knuckle heads!" I realize there are "pit squids" out there who ride back and forth past camp for hours on end, but your statement remains a fallacy. Just as it would be silly for someone to say all climbers are brainless hippy, dirtbag, free loading stoners who illegally squat everywhere they go. I don't really feel the latter but as we know there are a few who ruin it for many of us (both sides). I've seen plenty of knuckle head riders just like I've seen many climbers who seem like inarticulate dummies. The fact is we are all human and there are knuckle heads at every level.

It seems hypocritical to exclude one community from the desert for selfish reasons! After all, desert off-road riding was happening decades before climbing exploded. I love climbing and love riding and can understand both perspectives. Either way it's a tough topic and I don't envy the governing bodies. I also have a degree in environmental management and understand the dynamic between the environment and user interest groups, conservationists as well as how BLM and USFS gets caught in the cross fire. I actually DONT think it's best to develop OHV trails throughout the Creek. But if one small trail could connect two riding areas, it would be of little impact regardless of personal opinion. Consider Moab area and the slick rock trail which was established by the OHV community decades ago. And now the Mtn bike community looks down their nose at dirtbikes when in reality they owe that route to motorcycles. It would be much different if the desert that surrounds these climbing areas was being used by riders LONG before climbers found the areas (this is the case in many areas). One of the greatest riding areas I know of is in the Mojave desert. Many groups there head out for day long adventures, often 100+ miles without seeing the same sections of trail twice. So please don't spew that there is steady rushes of traffic. The bikes pass by and in seconds are gone...not to be seen or heard again.

People don't want change because they fear the unknown. Allowing OHVs risks changing their experience so they freak out and scream "NO". When in fact some change may prove to be acceptable, even bearable or barely noticeable. I climb and I ride and I've never seen riders rant about not wanting to share their beloved outdoors. Riders don't stay in one place long enough to be bothered. This is my 2 cents.

tim wrote:Ground source heat pumps from a renewable source? Only if their electricity source is a renewable energy power plant. That could be said for anything though.

You Google smart people are exhausting. If you knew how they worked you would know why I said that and why they qualify for a renewable energy income tax credit.

Stagg54 wrote: exactly my point. There is no free lunch. Not in terms of energy or in terms of environmental impact.

I was giving you the opportunity to provide some information of value. Perhaps some pertinent calculations. Not just some Google "facts". Emphasis on the quotes.

Greg D wrote: You Google smart people are exhausting. If you knew how they worked you would know why I said that and why they qualify for a renewable energy income tax credit.

You make a lot of assumptions, and u know what they say about that. I would be truly shocked if u do in fact have more knowledge and/or experience concerning ground source heat pumps.

Merlin wrote: It's Dr. Starfag pall.

You know I'm kidding! You'll always be my favorite astrologist! Btw how are things looking for Sagittarius in 2015?

tim wrote: You know I'm kidding! You'll always be my favorite astrologist! Btw how are things looking for Sagittarius in 2015?

No, no, no. You're supposed to say "I'm not your pall, buddy".

Sagittarius 2015, I see someone wearing a mister milker, it's very clearly written in the stars, I googled it.

Scottmx426 wrote:Pine sap...It's an ignorant statement to refer to all ATVers as "knuckle heads!" I realize there are "pit squids" out there who ride back and forth past camp for hours on end, but your statement remains a fallacy. Just as it would be silly for someone to say all climbers are brainless hippy, dirtbag, free loading stoners who illegally squat everywhere they go. I don't really feel the latter but as we know there are a few who ruin it for many of us (both sides). I've seen plenty of knuckle head riders just like I've seen many climbers who seem like inarticulate dummies. The fact is we are all human and there are knuckle heads at every level. It seems hypocritical to exclude one community from the desert for selfish reasons! After all, desert off-road riding was happening decades before climbing exploded. I love climbing and love riding and can understand both perspectives. Either way it's a tough topic and I don't envy the governing bodies. I also have a degree in environmental management and understand the dynamic between the environment and user interest groups, conservationists as well as how BLM and USFS gets caught in the cross fire. I actually DONT think it's best to develop OHV trails throughout the Creek. But if one small trail could connect two riding areas, it would be of little impact regardless of personal opinion. Consider Moab area and the slick rock trail which was established by the OHV community decades ago. And now the Mtn bike community looks down their nose at dirtbikes when in reality they owe that route to motorcycles. It would be much different if the desert that surrounds these climbing areas was being used by riders LONG before climbers found the areas (this is the case in many areas). One of the greatest riding areas I know of is in the Mojave desert. Many groups there head out for day long adventures, often 100+ miles without seeing the same sections of trail twice. So please don't spew that there is steady rushes of traffic. The bikes pass by and in seconds are gone...not to be seen or heard again. People don't want change because they fear the unknown. Allowing OHVs risks changing their experience so they freak out and scream "NO". When in fact some change may prove to be acceptable, even bearable or barely noticeable. I climb and I ride and I've never seen riders rant about not wanting to share their beloved outdoors. Riders don't stay in one place long enough to be bothered. This is my 2 cents.

Scottmx426 - I think you referenced your post to the wrong poster. In my post I do not refer to ATV rider's as quote "knuckle heads". I agree with your statement "The fact is we are all human and there are knuckle heads at every level." You state the obvious so I will as well. Yes, there are dim wits within every recreational pursuit. But in response to a few of your particular views: Of course riders don't "rant about not wanting to share their beloved outdoors". Motorized travel is possibly the only recreational activity in the desert that negatively impacts nearly all other users while nearly all other user's as they pursue their interests do not degrade the ATV experience. It is they who are the problem! Second, the problem with 1 small trail, as has been elaborated upon by Edward Abbey, is that it divides an unused area into 2. Then as use levels increase and the demand for more trails is expressed, the 2 area's get split into 4 area's, all of which now have easier access because trails were put in. Or, a road for that matter. Now and then, a few illicit incursions are bound to occur. Ultimately the ecology of the previously unused area begins to be altered and there you go, human kind have done it again! This is a fundamental argument for opposing more roads and trails into open, ecologically intact landscapes. Finally, in many area's surrounding the Moab area during peak seasons, the sound of motorized recreation is ever present, from dawn to dusk. Do you not see anything wrong with this? Please have a look at my post. Thanks-

I go to utah to get away from people, noise, consumerism etc. I seek silence. Unfortunately I have to drive further into the desert (and use more gas, each time) because ATVs are expanding further into the desert, including down canyons that are closed to motorized vehicles. There is one group of people who are not taken into account much here, and that are nature lovers and hikers, where is our right to peace and quiet? When will the expansion of trails stop? How about the BLM setting aside some untouched land for silence seekers? Apparently few consider a humans right to peace and quiet, and freedom from light and noise pollution. (And don't say that's what National Parks are for, we all know they are becoming noisy, overpopulated places, and can be downright unpleasant to camp or hike in at times. And for those of you who will tell me to butt out because this is a climbing forum, I do climb...a bit. The importance of peace, quiet, and darkness at night grows more every year...yet we lose more of it every year... my 2c worth.

Scottmx426 wrote:It seems hypocritical to exclude one community from the desert for selfish reasons!

Scottmx426 wrote:I love climbing and love riding and can understand both perspectives.

Interesting juxtaposition there. If you really understand both perspectives, then why do you dismiss an entire viewpoint out of hand as "hypocritical"? You present (and probably think of yourself) as a reasonable person, and I'm sure you are. But, have you considered that others who read your comments, and also think of themselves as reasonable, except they happen to disagree with you, see that you call them "hypocritical" without even hearing the argument...what are we supposed to think?

My point is, if we're going to have a civil conversation about this (as you seem to be in favor of), let's leave blanket statements and polarizing language out of it, and focus on the arguments!

I think it would be interesting to see how public opinion towards OHVs would change if they were similar to a passenger car in terms of noise levels. I have my own objections for other reasons but I think the noise is a huge deal breaker for many silent sport participants regarding their attitudes towards OHVs and in the mountains snow mobiles.

David Taft wrote:I think it would be interesting to see how public opinion towards OHVs would change if they were similar to a passenger car in terms of noise levels. I have my own objections for other reasons but I think the noise is a huge deal breaker for many silent sport participants regarding their attitudes towards OHVs and in the mountains snow mobiles.

Excellent point! Is it possible to have quieter motors on dirt bikes and still have the same performance?

Pine Sap wrote: Excellent point! Is it possible to have quieter motors on dirt bikes and still have the same performance?

I know that on e.g. snowmobiles, it would require a different engine on top of muffler requirements.
The trouble is that a poorly-muffled engine-whine is like a mating call (or really, like a call to compete for the right to mate) for the portion of the OHV community that cuts trails, works on their carburetor in crowded campsites until 4 am, ruts out major thoroughfares, etc.
So even if the rules for mufflers were increased and enforced, we'd encounter scofflaws and ingenious workarounds from the exact camp the new rules were written for.

I hate to play the "only outlaws would have guns" argument, but loud engines are symptomatic of the greater management problem. Either increase on-trail enforcement, or create non-wilderness area ohv-free corridors.

Not sure about Utah but California has a 96 decibel law. Those pipes are significantly quieter and some manufacturers sell stock bikes with them already installed. They do make a difference. Enforcement is an issue as someone stated.

I read in the SJR that this got approved.