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Anyone still re-sling cams over 10 years old?

JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195
Stone Nude wrote: They did him a favor. The new ones are a huge improvement anyway and aren't crazy expensive. I would think that wasting repairs on a bunch of worn out gear would be the greater "sin". Check out the other posts about Metolius' work. They clearly go above and beyond. I'd say that the same is true when they decommissioned your friends' set.
No way. Your so wrong. They were great for aid, and using in top rope anchors were the pieces would just take abuse. And at the time we were both guiding full time and they were the perfect pieces for abusing in over redundant Top Rope set ups for huge groups.

There was nothing wrong with the pieces except for some worn lobes. Action was still fine, no bent wires or cables. Visually fine except for worn slings.

I retriggered them for my buddy because at the time I was making some side cash in Estes as cam repair man. It was just ridiculous of them to do that. And they were the old design where the wires threaded through the center of the trigger bar on the TCU. Super pain in the ass to retrigger.

They were just covering their asses, but it cost my friend shipping, and me repair time and materials to make them usable again.

For sure, they make incredible units, but I would check with them and verify that they will not do the same if someone chooses to send in product for service to them. Totally uncalled for and even if the cams were to be retired, I think a guide can make his own call as to how they might use the cams in the future.

I teach quite a bit of gear and anchors courses and these units were perfect for that. I take my old gear and let the noobs I am teaching stuff them and test them however they want. For guides gear gets trashed when you let clients learn and play with your stuff. Those units were perfect at the time to continue to use in that context. Metolious in my opinion had no right to clip those wires.
Scottmx426 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 0

Read the cam repair form on their website. The Asterisk states the policy.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
JPVallone wrote:My partner sent back a set of TCU's to metolious, They were quite worn and needed new slings. Metolious clipped the wires on all the triggers and mailed them back that way and said the whole set was to be retired. I have not bought an item from them since, Ridiculous.
Thanks for the heads up. I can make my own decisions about my own gear. Will stick to Wired Bliss.
losbill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 130

Nudie

How do you know when your gear has reached the the failure point for wear ? Is it a wear thing, if so how do you gauge it; is it a time thing, if so do your cams come with an expiration date; is it possibly the phase of the moon; or perhaps the current condition of your wallet? A naive and inquiring mind wants to know.

I have often wondered why the lobe surface on cams is serrated. Once the serrations wear down don't you have more surface area in contact with the rock? Isn't that safer? I have noticed this wear more with my aliens which have softer aluminum than my BD cams. Cheap bastard that I am I have convinced myself that the aliens now have more grip strength now that they have more surface area in contact with the rock. Please don't tell me I'm wrong.

Regarding manufacturers, I am not naive in the slightest, they do not have your best interest at heart. They have theirs. Doesn't mean the two can't coincide on some issues but they are in the business of making money and avoiding lawsuits. Your best interest and safety are a far distant third priority for them.

Thanks

Bill

losbill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 130

Nudie,

Give me a break. I just jumped in here. Surely you have enough energy to go a few more pages! Come on buddy! Humor me! I don't have much else in my life!

I'm talking about the cam lobes themselves losing enough metal to not function dependably

How do I know when my cams have lost enough metal not to function dependably? Did I miss something when I threw away the product guide that came with my cams without reading it? Was there a gauge included in the product material that I could use to measure the wear on the cam? Was there a reference spec and SOP I could use with a micrometer to gauge the wear?

By the way, what do you mean by not functioning dependably? You mean they will have a greater likelihood of pulling out given the force of a fall? Or will they experience some sort of mechanical failure such as shattering or deformation of the lobes or breaking of one or more axles?

Be the way, how do cam lobes get worn? Do they wear simply from placing them repetively? Or do they get most of there wear from catching falls?

Wouldn't wearing down the lobes simply shift downward the effective range of the cam?

Just went to the basement and checked my cams. With the exception of two C3s they are all in excess of eight years old. The BD's show really limited wear on the lobes. Have fallen at least twice on the blue and a couple of times on the red and the green. But I have doubles in those so I assume each have experienced only a fall or two.

The aliens show significant more wear, softer aluminum and all that. Fallen on them a couple of times. 3 or 4 times on my yellow and 1 or 2 times on my green. Still use them. I am assuming, for better or worse, the greater surface area of the cam due to wearing down of the serrations puts more surface area in contact with the rock and thus greater holding power. What say you Nudie? Good assumption or bad assumption?

Confused by the mention of your condoms. Have you ever used them for protection during rock climbing? And I specifically mean climbing protection not protection for intimate interaction with a climbing partner. I imagine their use would certainly add some elasticity to the system.

I know. A lot of questions. Be patient with me. Looking forward to your responses.

Thanks,

Bill

JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195
Stone Nude wrote: "worn the fuck OUT, brah". .
Sorry, I'm a bit old and I am not familiar with the lingo, what is a Brah. I have not really been around the scene enough to know what the kids say these days.

Stone Nude wrote: What happens when a cam that is part of a TR anchor that "tons and tons and tons of people were taking TR laps on fails?


Well considering the institutional settings we work in that consist of way over built and redundant systems, not to mention the forces that TR anchors produce, or I should say the lack of when set up properly, I really didn't feel the least bit concerned about having pieces like this as a component of my over redundant and overbuilt anchors.

It almost sounds as if your implying that you might make anchors that rely entirely on one piece of gear for the scenario that you suggest to happen but I am sure you would have a field day telling me how ridiculous and over done my setups were. if you saw the types of anchors I built for the above mentioned scenarios I'm sure you would lay into me with your superior understanding of which pieces would result in catastrophic failure if they should fail. I'm16 years deep into my professional working career, and 22 years deep into my climbing career. Which really isn't much at all, I'm far from and expert, and I am really just beginning to learn how to manage risk and make better decisions in the mountains. I have managed to not have an anchor fail on me to date. Either I am getting really lucky, or I just understand gear, forces, and applications and am capable of making my own decisions and assessments while dealing with risk management all based on experience and time in the field. Something Metolious didn't give my friend the option to do, and that is think and act for ourselves.

As I mentioned a few posts ago, Those units were perfect for the applications we were implementing them in. And incredibly useful for teaching gear and anchors to folks that were shoving units into the rock for their first time.

If nothing else, it would of been fun to test them to failure and see if they really were that far gone.

Stone Nude wrote: I personally think it's a damn shame that Metolius sent those cams back to your broh,


Sorry, but earlier I was your brah, and now you are talking about my broh? Not sure what a broh is, but they did send those units back to my friend. Is that what you meant to say? Unfortunately they damaged them before they sent them back.

Stone Nude wrote:having his buddy Jerry-rig them into action against the manufacturers reccomendation.


Far from a jerry rig, My repairs were usually stronger and lasted longer then the original manufactures. Especially on the old Camalot back in the day. I was putting stronger swages on thicker gaged wires and cables as well. Built to last. I got pretty popular in town for my work and it kept me quite busy on the side. I think BD's original triggers were designed to fail so they would make money selling their trigger kits.

And it was not the manufactures "recommendation" as you put it, It was their decision. I think it would of been totally fine for them to return the cams the way they were and say sorry, We will not resling these and we "recommend" that you retire them. We are not responsible for your decisions etc etc etc. Didn't need to clip the wires.

Stone Nude wrote:I think that, as JPV has clearly shown us, that this is a wise and prudent measure, as when an injury or death takes place using a worn out piece of gear, it will not be one that they sent back to a customer who scoffed and had his bruh use spit and duct tape to eke a few more placements out of it.


See my above response to your last quote in this post. Far from duct tape and spit in my repairs and more then a few more placements.

Hmmm, Now I am really confused, are you referring to me as a "bruh" now?

This is really difficult, I'm feeling quite ignorant and uneducated at the moment, Excuse me for saying, but I really don't know what a brah, broh, or bruh is. I'm just really far out of cool loop these days.

Stone Nude wrote: This is rock climbing, not a contest on who can reuse the same square of TP the longest.


wow, Contests for using the same square of TP the longest, Does that actually exist? I would love to check that out. When is the next comp and were can we watch it? I live in France, do you know if there are any comps here in Europe that I can check out? Or do they only have those comps in Vegas? Seems like the best place for a turnout if your gonna have that kind of competition.

How do you judge that event and what are the rules? Does everyone have to use the same brand TP to even the playing field? Whats the best strategy, I'm guessing it all comes down to diet the night before?
rob.calm · · Loveland, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 630
losbill wrote: I have often wondered why the lobe surface on cams is serrated. Once the serrations wear down don't you have more surface area in contact with the rock? Isn't that safer?
When Friends were first on the market, many decades ago, you could contact Ray Jardine (snail mail) if you had questions about them and most often would get a reply. Jardine was the inventor of Friends, the first effective camming device. After I had used my #2 Friend a number of times working on climbs, the surfaces of the cams had become worn down and had a smooth rather than a grooved texture. I wrote Jardine about it. He replied that they actually worked better that way and that the grooves had been added as a feature that made them appear better to the user even though they did not contribute to the holding power.

I do not know enough about the physics involved to have an opinion as to whether grooved or smooth surfaces are more effective.

Rob.calm

EDIT POST
losbill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 130

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the informative reply. Jardine certainly qualifies as an authority! I have seen speculation on the Web regarding reasons for the serrations such as aiding in deformation under under load, catching the lobe on microcrystals to prevent sliding in the initial stages of loading and providing a channel for miocrodebris to by pushed into so the metal of the lobe fully meets the rock surface. But no real authoritative source backed by physics or data to substantiate any of it. Not really buying any of it but keeping an open mind. If I weren't such a lazy bastard, in addition to being a cheap bastard I would write to BD and ask.

On the subject of cams, several years ago I bootied a cam at the Brass Wall at Red Rock.

Red Rock Booty
Red Rock Booty top view

It appears to be a Friend. They were before my time so I'm not sure. It was in excellent condition, clean and lubricated. It is just about the size of a red camalot and slung with a sewn webbing loop with a Yates tag on it. The only marking on the cam seems to be a faint "2.5" on the stem. It is in a spot which is a bit scratched up so I'm not sure. It was still attached to a draw. I assume an inexperienced second unclipped it and forget to clean it. I occasionally climb with it at the Gunks just for kicks, although I have yet to tie it off short when placed in an horizontal, and when I do Reppy's Crack on Cannon to give me a 3rd #1 size on the rack.

Can anyone confirm the manufacturer and give me an estimate of the age of the cam?

Thanks,

Bill

Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

Bill, if you want to know about prehistoric gear and maybe even find the owner(s) and what were the reasons why it was left there, go check the Taco.

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175
Luc wrote:Bill, if you want to know about prehistoric gear and maybe even find the owner(s) and what were the reasons why it was left there, go check the Taco.
LOL!
losbill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 130

Hey Luc -- I have been called a dinosaur recently! So perhaps my that explains my interest in prehistoric gear! -- Bill

Frank Stein · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205

It is a 2.5 forged friend. This is the first anodized version, before they started making them with red lobes and spectra slings, which was the last edition. My guess is that it goes back to about '97 or '98. I used to order them from Canada for $28 a piece for my Creek rack. Really like them as they are super light weight.

losbill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 130

Thanks Schmuck. I appreciate the information. It is a nice cam, well-designed with excellent fit and finish. It is light. Your comment in that regard prompted me to get out the scale and the cams. The Friend is 4.26, old style C4 is 5.9 and new style C4 is 4.96 ounces. The difference in weight is obviously due to the dual-axle design of the C4s. Bit surprised at the pretty significant weight difference between the two models of the C4s. Upon inspection it appears as a result of smaller diameter axles and concomitant smaller axle housing.

Luc I did feel bad about not being able to reunite the cam with its owner. I am sure it was a treasured piece. However I found it back in 2006 before I was introduced to the wide, wild world of internet climbing forums. Thus I was a bit limited in means to do so. However if someone thinks they do recognize the cam and can tell me the route on Brass Wall where it was left and describe the draw that was attached to it it would be my distinct pleasure to return the gear to them.

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175
Stone Nude wrote: I am heartbroken from the large fries and coke I bought with it.
It would appear you carry this "guilt" with you even today.
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

I took my 1988 Ford to the dealership for some front end work and they removed the spark plugs and filled the cylinders with concrete. Said the car was too old and thus unsafe.

j/k I don't own a Ford.

Anymore. :-)

Kaner · · Eagle · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 2,280

Posting to this old thread because I have the same question.  I've got 2 old pieces of booty gear and I'd love a "professional" company to check them out, clean em up, re-sling.  One is a yellow Alien and the other a .75 all metal Rigid Friend.  I've got other cams of each size, but it's nice to pad the rack and have some variety.  Especially the rigid friend works like its brand new.  Any recommendation?

Here's one answer I found:

@WiredBlissCams   20 Jan 2016
Hello to all.  Wired Bliss will be taking a hiatus from rehabilitating cams (wires and slings).  Thanks a bunch...

Andrew Jackson · · Greensboro, NC · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 1

Mountain Tools will resling any brand, even tricams. I have used them and was very happy with the results.

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
Kaner wrote:. . . . . . . and the other a .75 all metal Rigid Friend. 
.75? What is the 'make' of ridged cam ? I don't think Wild Country ever made that size.

Beyond that... Stop cutting off  the original  webbing/slings!  ( if it is just fuzzy from wear-age )
Add an additional loop of cord or tape to give redundancy to the old but perfectly serviceable original,                                                           (thicker, specifically to add longer life-span )designed to, often by spiral weave, resist abrasion.  
Paul Morrison · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 55
wivanoff wrote: Also, see the warning here about thumbloops: blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

Mountain Tools will re-sling your Aliens with a doubled webbing like a Camalot. Better than the original.

Kaner · · Eagle · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 2,280
Michael Schneider wrote: .75? What is the 'make' of ridged cam ? I don't think Wild Country ever made that size.

Don't know what they call it but it's similar in size to a green .75 BD.  So I rack it with a green biner and it sits near the .75s on my rack (not that I know how to climb .75 cracks)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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