Mountain Project Logo

Indian Creek ATV Trail EA Comment period closes soon

Original Post
Chris Wenker · · Santa Fe · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 1,887
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

As the president of the FPOATVSCREHNL (fat people on atv's can ride em harder n longer) I went down to Indian creek to check it out. Turns out climbers put trails all over the place, permanently damage the rock by drilling holes and put in shiny steel, put white chalk all over the beautiful dark red rock visible from the road, lower themselves off the rock leaving deep permanent gouges, write on the walls stupid stuff like loose rock (duh), have groups of 30 or more and party well into the night disturbing the peace. Someone even scratched a route name into the wall, not on a little plaque, but right on the wall. And if you walk by the cliffs all you hear are people yelling Jake or bake or take or something like that. Effing tards. But because they drink wheat grass and do yoga they think that their shit don't stink.

We are going to take our fat asses to somewhere not being ruined by climbers.

Dumb ass

Zach Adamczyk · · Parsippany, New Jersey · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 15

It is every American’s birthright to use the national forests and grasslands in multiple ways, including outdoor recreation in all its forms.

Whats so wrong with guys on ATV, Dirt Bikes, UTV's and Jeeps have another trail to connect two large riding areas.

I am a off road enthusiast and a climber. i would love to be able to put my climbing gear on the back of a quad, have a nice ride out, climb then go ride back to camp.

As long as everyone stays on the trail whats the problem

Altered Ego · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

The problem is most of the world is trying to move away from fossil fuels. Personally I think shit like NASCAR should be banned. But there are a lot of adult men that don't want to give up their toys, comforts, conveniences and wars. People don't see how their actions affect everyone else and many of them just don't care.

The planet is dying. All major life systems are breaking down. It's fascinating to be in a generation where we know we are living irresponsibly and continue on with our lifestyle regardless. Instead of caring many have taken an attitude of "fuck it, I'm just gonna do my thing and if people don't like it too bad".

JeffL · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 65

Have you ever been to the campground near Moab that has tons of atv and dirtbike users? Lots of trash and broken bottles. It seems as if these users are not very respectful.

I another note, What is the opinion of the family that lives at the ranch. Heidi I think her name is?

Scot Hastings · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 35
Passive Aggression wrote:The problem is most of the world is trying to move away from fossil fuels. Personally I think shit like NASCAR should be banned. But there are a lot of adult men that don't want to give up their toys, comforts, conveniences and wars. People don't see how their actions affect everyone else and many of them just don't care. The planet is dying. All major life systems are breaking down. It's fascinating to be in a generation where we know we are living irresponsibly and continue on with our lifestyle regardless. Instead of caring many have taken an attitude of "fuck it, I'm just gonna do my thing and if people don't like it too bad".
Passive Agression, I'm assuming you never drive a car to the crag. If so, I'd like to know how that's any different? You're using a fossil fuels to have fun. In fact, you're probably using a lot more in your car than the guy riding his ATV.

Like most things, this is not black and white. The best thing for the environment would be for us all to stay home and stare at the walls. That doesn't sound like a society I want to be a part of, though. People using a couple gallons of gas a month riding their ATVs and dirt bikes around in a responsible manner (i.e. on trail, no litter, etc.) is not a problem.
Altered Ego · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

wfscot,

I understand what you're saying and I generally agree with your point. How does one get an ATV from their house (possibly in another state) to the Moab area? Hauling it on a trailer behind a truck is what I usually see so I don't think that ATVs have the same impact as driving high mpg cars but there's a bigger picture here. Not to mention I don't have to drive more than a couple miles to a climbing area.

Life doesn't end without gasoline leaving us staring at the walls. There are plenty other ways to get energy and live a modern lifestyle that is in line with what the planet can handle. At some point we (americans)are going to have to make some serious lifestyle changes and sacrifices if we don't want to be one of the last generations of humans on planet earth.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

" There are plenty other ways to get energy and live a modern lifestyle that is in line with what the planet can handle." -Passive Aggression

Your solution? Please explain.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but I would like to know what alternative we are suppose to jump to that is affordable, abundant, and obtainable in the here and now. Let alone gives us the same energy output for the cost.

Nothing compares, and until someone comes along with an alternative that can beat the cost and energy of petroleum your howls will fall on deaf ears.

"How does one get an ATV from their house (possibly in another state) to the Moab area? Hauling it on a trailer behind a truck is what I usually see..." -Passive Aggression

How do you get your climbing gear, clothes, food, etc? Big trucks with trailers is my bet. You may want to give up your shoes, medication, your girlfriend's/wife's makeup, plastics, building materials, etc. Don't contribute to the hyprocrisy.

Ban NASCAR? I'm not a fan, but banning passive aggressive behavior may be a better start.

Edit to add: I think I'll kick over the CR 250 sitting in the garage and take a ride today.

Tug · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 0

"Your solution? Please explain"

Conservation.

Jason N. · · Grand Junction · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 10

It's obviously not a black and white issue, but some recreational activities are certainly more impactful than others.

During a recent discussion with some friends while climbing at Devil's Head (all of our first time there...LOTS of use from the ATV/OHV crowd - trashed campsites btw too, but I digress), we all decided that we didn't think we would care about ATVs/Off-Road vehicles if it wasn't for the noise pollution. Maybe electric version of these vehicles would be the ticket for wider acceptance? Just my 2 cents.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

Tug,

Kind of like how climbers wear down new shortcut paths to the climbs, or Greg D's post above, or any number of other things that climbers do to change the landscape?

I'm all for conservation! I love to be in the outdoors in pristine conditions, so don't take this as an I don't care attitude.

The problem I see is that there is much hooping and hollering about conservation and protection, but much more hyprocrisy by those who tell everybody else how to live.

It took about 100 years to get where we are now with a population that is much more expansive than years past. Do we convert our cars, trucks, ships, and planes to take sail again? Solar? What?

We have no new tech that can compete with petroleum as of right now. When it gets here please let me know.

As for conservation; I stick to the trails, abide by the rules, and pack out my own, but I can't say that for everyone. It will be hard to convert 6-7 billion people to do the same especially when most of those are just now catching up to what we have had for the last 100 years. Be my guest as to tell them no.

Red · · Tacoma, Toyota · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 1,625

Bump

link

Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

Thank you for the link. I will be writing to the BLM to express my opposition to the path.

This isn't about environmentalism - it's about aesthetics! And it's entirely selfish. Yes, when I go to what is probably the single best desert crack climbing area in the country, I want to effing enjoy it without the constant roar and smell of 4-wheelers! Those who enjoy that type of activity can go to any other of the millions of acres across the country where it is permitted. If you happen to climb AND ride an ATV and want to be able to do it at the Creek, well...go ahead and voice your support for the trail. It's a free society and it's OK to have different preferences on how to use the land - but don't tell me not to voice mine!

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

"This isn't about environmentalism - it's about aesthetics!" -Alexey Dynkin

You mean like Greg D's post above?

"It's a free society and it's OK to have different preferences on how to use the land - but don't tell me not to voice mine!" -Alexey Dynkin

Is it? From the perspective you write it does not sound as such. It sounds as though you wish there was not. Only those that I select can enter - that does not sound very public.

"... it's entirely selfish."

Yes, it is.

Travis Haussener · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 60

I wouldn't say this is about environmentalism either...it's simple child logic. First were the Anasazi, then the Redd's, then the climbers. It's simple "we were here first" logic.

Try to go sightseeing in South Dakota during Sturgis, it's not about environmentalism there either, just a long history.

These discussions always end in circular logic, no matter what way you look at it. Will the ATV's be worse for the environment than climbers? probably...do they still have a right to be access their public lands? also probably.

But in the end we as climbers dominate the history in the area and in so doing we are more than inclined to make the decisions in our favor, whether they are right or wrong.

Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0
Travis Haussener wrote:But in the end we as climbers dominate the history in the area and in so doing we are more than inclined to make the decisions in our favor, whether they are right or wrong.
Exactly. And I'm fine with that. I'm sick of having to "understand the other perspective" when the "other perspective" usually has no interest in hearing ours. How many Indian Creeks are out there, versus how many miles of ATV tracks across the UT desert?
Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

BigFeet - what is your point exactly? That any sort of access should be permitted anywhere, so long as YOU happen to enjoy that activity? So, by that logic, why not build a gondola up Half Dome, a paved road down into the Grand Canyon, open up a shooting range in Zion, and while we're at it, a shopping center in the Cirque of the Towers - hey, wouldn't you want a nice cold beer after your 12-pitch climb? Just don't complain about what sort of stuff they might decide to permit on your ATV track...

tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507

Jeepers are douchebags, climbers are self righteous douchebags, and hasn't indian creek already hit shit show rock bottom?

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203
Zach Adamczyk wrote:It is every American’s birthright to use the national forests and grasslands in multiple ways, including outdoor recreation in all its forms. Whats so wrong with guys on ATV, Dirt Bikes, UTV's and Jeeps have another trail to connect two large riding areas. I am a off road enthusiast and a climber. i would love to be able to put my climbing gear on the back of a quad, have a nice ride out, climb then go ride back to camp. As long as everyone stays on the trail whats the problem
Zach, the problem is that there are already thousands of miles for ATV usage in Utah. The four BLM districts that encompass much of S. Utah are all in court over their recent travel management plans rammed through as Bush left office.

The BLM has been repeatedly bitch slapped by the courts because of their piss poor management and in one case have been ordered by the court to redo their travel management plan. The other three districts will soon be getting the same slapping.

So while I am willing to allow multiple usage there is a time and place. Until the court cases are resolved now is not the time to consider new routes. Further, the routes proposed are nothing more than the county wanting to prevent any type of land protection as such it is not the place.
BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

Alexey,

My point was to illustrate the self-righteousness and better-than-thou attitude displayed.

If you really want to know my opinion it would be to agree with not to put anymore vehicle paths in any preserve, national park, and so forth.

Ponder this question: What is your reaction to a climbing area that is closed for climbers due to some ridiculous land management ruling, but the bird watchers, mountain bikers, or other get access? Who is to say those listed are not blazing trails, leaving trash, etc. which causes damage? Possibly irreparable? The climbing community would be up-in-arms with petitions in one hand, and dialing the phone with the other.

I'm not trying to be an ass which this may be coming off as, but I'm tired of the jumping to conclusions on a whole spectrum of those you may not know much about. The constant do-gooder types that espouse nonsensical reasoning, and those that lump groups together.

This issue is about the individual. As stated above, there are idiots in all groups. Who is going to be a conservationist? Can you tell by not knowing, personally, the group you judge?

Who knows, maybe that group you do not want around could come to your aid at some point. Give you a ride to your favorite climb. Fight for your right to use public land. Become a new friend?

The hypocrisy of humans is obscene, and dealing with those that make statements/decisions based off feelings instead of logic has made me more forthcoming with my opinions. I'm sure you can agree with having opinions.

I don't have an answer as to how to correctly make everyone happy, protect the environment, and have a cohesive society. Whoever does will win a prize though, I'm sure. Until then I would assume we work together to police our own groups and expand from there.

Cocoapuffs 1000 · · Columbus, OH · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 50
Alexey Dynkin wrote: Exactly. And I'm fine with that. I'm sick of having to "understand the other perspective" when the "other perspective" usually has no interest in hearing ours. How many Indian Creeks are out there, versus how many miles of ATV tracks across the UT desert?
That's because to you, every ATV trail is the same. Guess what? To those guys every rock climb is the same. So why don't you just climb somewhere else?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern Utah Deserts
Post a Reply to "Indian Creek ATV Trail EA Comment period closes…"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.