Got benighted on Madame G's at the Gunks - left about 8 pieces behind!

Bob Johnson wrote: No, we were climbing over in the Nears earlier in the day and started up Madame G's around 4pm.

Really? You had to know you couldn't complete this in the light. Lost gear appears to be the penalty for a poor decision...of course I'm only on page 2, for all I know you got it back and learned nothing.

Bhahaha I wanna see the underachieving overweight micro managing power tripping tough guy wanna be park ranger/cop trying to enforce "booty law" in an area like Gunks! That can be a good movie plot!

NateGfunk wrote:Unclip, clean draw, whip, repeat.

I kind of thought that's what it meant but couldn't get myself to believe anybody would actually do that even on a severely overhung wall. I've had my share of difficult retreats, but it's been beyond my imagination to consider this as an option.

rob.calm

rgold wrote:I'm not a lawyer, but NYS law is unequivocal about this, see codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode…. Ya got ten days to turn the found property over to either the owner, the Mohonk Preserve (as the entity "in possession of the premises where the property or instrument was found"), or the Gardiner police. Failure to do so is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $100 and not more than six months in jail or both. However, there is a catch which I'll leave to the lawyers. The property in question above is "lost property." There are different considerations for "abandoned property," which is why I used the term "abandoned" in my previous posts. If someone puts a file cabinet out on the street, you are not obligated to find the owner and return it. So I would guess that the legal issue revolves around whether the items in question can be reasonably viewed as "lost" or "abandoned."

The definition of "lost property" is found in the previous section, N.Y. Pep. Law § 251:

"The term 'lost property' as used in this article includes lost or mislaid property. Abandoned property, waifs and treasure trove, and other property which is found, shall be presumed to be lost property and such presumption shall be conclusive unless it is established in an action or proceeding commenced within six months after the date of the finding that the property is not lost property."

rob.calm wrote: I kind of thought that's what it meant but couldn't get myself to believe anybody would actually do that even on a severely overhung wall. I've had my share of difficult retreats, but it's been beyond my imagination to consider this as an option. rob.calm

yeah, thats it. the kid slammed into the slab after the first whip in which daddy gave him an extra HARD catch, then they decided to lower and leave 2 draws on two bolts just to be extra safe. maybe they were from Boston, maybe NY, I didnt know the accents too well back then. I'm wicked smaht on them now though.

eyesonice2014 wrote:Bhahaha I wanna see the underachieving overweight micro managing power tripping tough guy wanna be park ranger/cop trying to enforce "booty law" in an area like Gunks! That can be a good movie plot!

It doesn't sound like you've been to the Gunks. Most of the rangers climb, some at a very high level, no one is on a power trip, and management is anything but micro. In any case, no ranger is going to enforce that law, and in fact it is nearly unenforceable.

The question about the legality of the old finders-keepers cultural norms was raised and that's what I responded to. PRRose read with a little more sophistication. It seems the finder has to start a legal action aimed at proving the property was not "lost" or "mislaid" and order for it to be viewed as "abandoned," otherwise it is presumed to be lost. Gear left on a climb is neither "lost" or "mislaid" in my (ordinary, not legal) understanding of the term, but "abandoned" might mean that the owner had neither the interest nor the expectation of getting the gear back, in which case "abandoned" wouldn't be appropriate either. Indeed, if the climber intended to return for the gear, it is pretty clearly not "abandoned," unless some absurd amount of time has elapsed without any action by the owner.

jeff walz wrote:That being said: Assuming you don't/didn't get your gear back, PM me a list of the pieces you abandoned. I'll replace one I have an overabundance of. Alms to the climbing Gods. And to the hoods on the block: I still want my bike back.

That's a really nice offer Jeff! I really appreciate it! I'll add you to the list of people in this thread that I would like to buy a beer! But it's ok...I'll make do. Hopefully whoever finds the gear (probably already happened) is as nice as you!

SXL wrote:I just started climbing trad. Here is the way it has been explained to me. Say you find a single cam stuck on a pitch. You can keep it if you get it out. But if you find half a pitch of gear, get it out and try to find the owner. You don't know what happened. I try to return everything. It's same people that might give me a ride some day. You can be a gypsy and take other peoples gear. I have had all quick-draws "cleaned" from a route while I was getting lunch. They used my own clip stick. The stick was gone too. PS. No reason to get upset. First, karma will get them. Second, gear is like gasoline. You burn through it. You leave draws on a project, come back in a week. The biners are sharp (what's taille-crayon in English?), you throw them out.

Not so concerned that karma catches up with whoever takes the gear...I'd rather just have the gear back :-P But thanks for your thoughts! I liked the analogy between gear and gasoline...although I was hoping to get some more mileage out of my stuff!

Draws cleaned while you were eating lunch?! That's cold!

wow what a long thread! made me stop and think of my own experiences finding gear and what i would do had i stumbled upon these 8 pieces.

i don't think i have ever come across more than one piece at a time when i have found booty. in most cases these were stuck nuts or bail biners on a bolt. ive only gotten a couple cams....these were on multipitch where the second just couldnt get the cam out...i got a #1 and a #.3 out west that are both still on my rack...like i mentioned a ton of nuts and both lockers and non from sport climbs. idk....i find it enjoyable to work on stuck gear and succeed in getting it out....even if i have to place another piece and hang on it to do so. free gear that takes a little skill to remove is fun.

if i came across these 8 pieces i would def be excited at the discovery and the monetary value, especially if i didn't have something i found on my rack. i would like to think that i am mature enough to realize that something out of the ordinary must have happened and that the right thing to do would be to post on here and try to return the gear to its rightful owner. although, like i said, there would be a little internal conflict in my case. booty makes me excited! what can i say.

SXL wrote:You can be a gypsy and take other peoples gear....(what's taille-crayon in English?)

That's a gratuitous racial slur about the Romani that should never have been placed in this thread. Your reference to "taille-crayon", viz., pencil sharpener, indicates a European background. Be aware that bigotry towards the Romani is not as common in the U.S. as it is on the Continent.

RobertusPunctumPacificus

I went from the first post, skipped to the last page and I am amazed haha. In this case Bob I hope you get your gear back. If not it's the way it goes. I'm all for collecting booty but when someone loses half their rack it changes the scenario a bit. Good Luck!

rgold wrote:Looking back, many accidents occur as a result of not one but a series of unfortunate decisions. Fortunately, you weren't sucked into that syndrome and decided to cut your losses after your first mistake. There's been some really poor advice about hauling given that would, at the very best, probably have resulted in your spending the whole night out there. It is extremely unlikely that you could have budged the second from 100 feet away with the rope running though protection and over and around various edges, no matter what so-called "mechanical advantage" system you improvised, but if you were unlucky enough to have pulled her up a little so that she ended up hanging higher up with you unable to move her, the real epic would have begun. Good for you for not trying to head down that road. Sunset nowadays is around 4:30 PM. You get maybe another half hour of civil twilight, after which it is too dark to see. Temperatures can drop rapidly once the sun has set, making clothing worn during the day insufficient. Things could have gotten very uncomfortable indeed. Granted that you effed up by beginning late with a second not fully as competent as you, I think you did the right thing after that. Hope you get your stuff back.

The most insightful post in this thread.

Deserved or not, thanks for the vote of confidence.

Since my comment has come 'round again, I think there is something worth adding, and this is not at all in the spirit of piling on, because I've already said that I think BJ did the right thing ultimately.

The added observation is this. One way we get into epics is when we combine things we can can manage by themselves. So in this example: climbing with someone with lesser ability. No big deal right? I assume almost everyone does this, and thank god, because that's also how most of us learned. Late starts and pushing the daylight envelope? Also no big deal, we do that all the time too.

BUT, combine these relatively slight extra challenges, and all of a sudden you can find yourself in a situation that seems somehow much worse than the sum of its individual difficulties. It wouldn't have been that hard to handle either challenge separately, but together they seem to somehow multiply, rather than just add.

I'm afraid I've made this kind of mistake more than once, which doesn't speak well for my intelligence, but there you have it---I won't be wagging any fingers. Sometimes, optimism wins out, even if it isn't well-considered. All I can say is beware of combining challenges you can handle individually; the combination may be a much bigger deal.

My two cents as a new climber:

If I ended up in the situation Bob's follower did, I'd hope the leader I was with wouldn't worry about the gear right then and there, and would focus on getting my down safely. That's priority one, in my opinion.

People make mistakes. Smart people learn from them. I'm assuming not only Bob, but everyone else has learned from this who thing.

If I found that much gear on a route, I'd try to get it back to the owner. I'd assume something went pretty wrong for that much cash to be left on the route.

If it was my gear, I'd do just what Bob's done and politely post it with an explanation as to why I left it behind. I'd expect to get slammed, and expect that I would not get my gear back, but hope that I would.

Yeah, but if it was you and not the girl, he would have just heckled you to death 'till you got up the thing.

M Sprague wrote:Yeah, but if it was you and not the girl, he would have just heckled you to death 'till you got up the thing.

I don't think I'd heckle anyone. Climbing is challenging enough, not to mention dangerous, without partners heckling each other. My favorite people to climb with are the ones that I can share a positive attitude with. Encouraging is one thing, making someone feel bad until they give in is another.

M Sprague wrote:Yeah, but if it was you and not the girl, he would have just heckled you to death 'till you got up the thing.

I don't think a guy (same beginner level as Bob's partner) would've made it past the techy crux on the pitch one. I bet the girl cruised it and thus sandbagged Bob into going all the way to the top.

If I found all that gear I would celebrate and thank my lucky stars! I would also inspect them and give them a wash and a lube.

doligo wrote: I don't think a guy (same beginner level as Bob's partner) would've made it past the techy crux on the pitch one. I bet the girl cruised it and thus sandbagged Bob into going all the way to the top.

Haha! I really like your thoughts here!

Brassmonkey wrote: Just wondering, did you ever get your gear back?

He did.  And in the six years since, the anniversary of this epic is celebrated as a local holiday in New Paltz.  Parades, barbecues, the whole nine yards.

JL