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Anyone fall on an ice screw on lead?

kyle kingrey · · Loveland · Joined Aug 2003 · Points: 950

I was watching a friend (Bernie)lead Spiral Staircase in Vail. He lead 3/4 of the way up with no pro. He placed one screw and then near the very top some ice fractured, both tools popped and here came Bernie..screaming loudly along the way. The one screw he placed held (no screamer) and Bernie was safe about 2 foot from the deck. Witnessing this was a HUGE confidence boost for me. I was always wary of ice pro and of falling on it....after that incident leading ice felt safer to me. Thanks Bernie!

jaredj · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 165

TIL peeps fall on ice more than I had thought

Mark Melvin · · San Francisco · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 70

I've done a medium amount of ice over the years. It's great to see that everyone agrees to what becomes immediately obvious on your first ice climb—there's too much going on to treat the system the same, from a safety-point-of-view, as a rock climbing sport or otherwise well-protected route. Don't fall leading on ice is pretty intuitive. I haven't taken a serious fall on ice. I've felt the fear for sure. Once in the Canadian Rockies on a short WI IV or so, I whacked my pick in a little too close to the other, and on very brittle ice, I saw a dinner-plate crack travel underneath the other pick, both picks in at that point. I was still fine, but taking out one of the two picks was indeed adrenaline-wrought. Okay, so my one fall was when I went with my son when he was 10 to do Dana Couloir. Most readers of this page can solo it. I'm not much of a soloist, but I was very casual just because it's so easy. Nevertheless, I'd put in a screw every 50' or so, and at one place I slipped about 10' higher. My son was astounded, and super excited that he saved his dad, although actually, I probably would have slid 50' to soft snow and been fine. But the screw did hold.

Mark Cushman · · Cumming, GA · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 980

I fell on Stairway to Heaven, too. See the forum post below from 2010:

ice lead falls?

Jfaub · · Ottawa, On · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 795

I've never fallen leading ice, but came pretty close. I was climbing the classic WI4 Moonlight in the Canadian Rockies. In hindsight, I shouldn't have gone up in the first place (ice was rotten and melting) and my crampons were so blunt from numerous days of climbing ice in a row. So I guess my point here is that alot of the times bad judgement can lead to close calls.

I witnessed one lead fall from one guy in the Laurentian Mountains in Quebec. Both of the guys tools popped at the same time. Fortunately he had laced up the climb, and only fell about 15ft. No injuries, but his belayer was pretty rattled.

I like to think of ice climbing as soloing. If conditions aren't right, and you don't know for sure you can send, don't do it. (*personal opinion*) I also think that's one of the most beautiful things about ice climbing ; everything you do has to be perfect. It really should feel effortless and flowy.

Mar' Himmerich · · Santa Fe, NM · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 10

haha!! I took a 100 footer at Lee Vining in 1985~ that's almost 3 seconds airtime.

It was overhanging, so I didn't hit anything until the rebound on dbl-ropes. It was an arcing head-first, back-to-the-wall whipper.

It was a single 8" Chouinard screw oriented near-vertical into a hefty hummock of solid plastic ice with two single-length 5/8" slings clove-hitched under the eye around the shaft with a separate biner from each sling clipped to each rope. I don't remember if the slings were sewn or tied with a water-knot.

I estimate the rope stretched around 20' after I flamed-out in a slush cul-de-sac 40' above the screw. I was climbing with Chouinard X-tools. The axe had an alpine pick and the hammer had the new re-curve pick before they lengthened it.

The front points of the rigid crampons were sharp but a little short from wear and I was climbing on those little two-buckle first-gen red Dynafit AT boots. What happened was that finally one of the crampons sheared and off I went. I had plenty of time to yell FALL!

My buddy, Bob Horton (and his ropes) saved my butt. He'd already untied from his anchor and jumped/ran down the slope when I popped. There was some incredible G-force on the bottom and on the rebound, I hit the ice glancing upward flat against my back so hard that the deliberately oversize Joe Brown hand-laid fiberglass helmet Bruce Neiberg convinced my to buy cracked about 5" and totally deformed the molded foam liner.

In those days, I didn't often wear a helmet. I didn't buy another one until I bounced off a tree and drew some blood in the back-country (Santa Fe). I skied right to my car and when i got to town I bought a Petzl Ecrin Rock. I figured I didn't need to be a statistic.

I was very pissed off as soon as I came to a stop upside-down (as I recall). I saw I'd lost one of my tools as it was impaled shaft-first into the snow about 5 feet away from Bob.

I don't think I untied, but I did say that It was now his lead. He sewed it up methodically and stayed a bit more on the front of the pedestal that ended shy of the top.

I lead the last 50' section that was still quite steep.

I remember when I started following Bob's lead, I asked for tension and got a sneer from a passerby, but evidently he got the word from the people further to the right what had happened and he later apologized.

I wrote Maria and said the screw was the bomb, but the re-curve pick needs to be lengthened 2".

Ice Screws. I recommend them highly.

lynchdogger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 0

Last winter I took my first lead fall climbing ice after 25 years.
The fall was a 35' footer on 13cm BD screw with a Yates Screamer. Screamer ripped. I know a lot of people are getting away from using these but I still do and I use them on trucky or thin rock routes too. Ended up upside down and unhurt despite hitting my shoulders and head (yes wearing a helmet).
My long time partner looked at me for a moment and once he realized that I was unhurt dryly commented "Really? Well that's one way to do it." After a good laugh and a regrouping I finished the pitch.
I was a little sore the next day but climbed all day. Don't plan on making that a habit though.
I fell rushing thru an easy pitch to get to our planned climbed when a bulge shattered and took out both tools at once.
Lesson - place more gear and focus.

Wyatt H · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 6

It seems like a lot of these falls are due to tool placement too close to the other tool or at the same level. If you climb with basic "triangle" technique, this should never happen. What's going on?

Steven N · · CO · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 80

My little incident occured at Lincoln Falls, about 6 years ago.

My partner had just finished leading up the center falls and I was lowering him when he mentioned I should lead it too. I agreed and we proceeded to pull the line. So I climbed up feeling strong and clipping the 2 screws on the lower part of the climb that my partner had just placed instead of placing new screws (yeah...) We were messing with a little variation of climbing on the right side of the main fall and then traversing left instead of gaining the ledge. So on the traverse, I was stemmed out left, reaching left into a rocky ledge and then matching with my right hand.
As I pulled on the left tool, the downward pressure turned into outward pressure and off I came, flying backwards with one tool in both hands and the other in my mouth. Falling to the sloped ground, the 1st thing to hit was my right hip and then hitting my head with a loud "F*CK!!".
Thankfully, what ended up being about a 30 ft fall only felt like a 6 ft fall. The upper screamer partially activated before the screw pulled. The screamer partially activated also but the screw held. I actually have a picture somewhere of the instant I'm hitting the ground. You can see tension on my harness from the rope and a ripple in my cheek from the impact.
Although I had a sore hip, I was uninjured and walked away. I'm really not too clear how I didn't end up with a mouth full of broken teeth either.

climbing coastie · · Wasilla, AK · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 95

Only once when I first started leading. I was about 3' above my first screw (I think it was a 16cm) and next thing I know I'm hanging on the rope thinking that was the softest catch ever. Screamer ripped fully, so it was just a slow stop and not a jerk.

And to add to the strenghth of the ice comment. I was belaying a guy that decided to back off a climb. He put in a screw and I started to lower him off. When he was about 5-10 feet below the screw it pulled out sending him flying. Luckily the next screw, a shorter one if I remember, held and kept him from decking. So it really is all about the quality of the ice.

John Schwelm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 15

Hi,
Its 21 years ago I was leading an ice climb in North Wales UK called the Screen. The grade escapes me but I had just screwed in a Lowes 9" Snarg I think they were called when the ice column I was on broke just below my placement. I fell about 90' but did not hit the ground. I was hanging on the Snarg 90' up. My second received a good rope burn right thru his mitts and I a broken ankle. I must have struck something with my spikes on the very quick descent.
I was fortunate that the block of ice and I did not meet up in the fall. What can I say about the gear other than if placed properly it should work.
Just recall that ice is ice and not 100% dependable. It turned out a friend of mine had been thru earlier in the day with a group of paying customers and they likely fractured the once in a decade climb. The plaster on my leg was good for many pints from friends over the next 4-5 weeks.
I was in India 4 months later leading an unsuccessful attempt on the SE face of Mt Kun. Did the new SE route but did not summit due to -60degree temps.

JHS

A pic from the internet, not me.

Me and gang in India 1993, I am on the right. 60 now old fart!

rob bauer · · Golden, CO · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 3,929

I was climbing w Bob Horton a few weeks ago and asked him to comment on that 100' fall MH took in 1985. His comment: Bob remembers that day vividly, and he still has the bent Chouinard ice screw. It is one of the long ones (10 or 12 inches). I [Bob] had untied from the anchor to avoid falling ice from the rotten section Mar’ was leading, and I jumped off the stance to pull in rope (~20 ft) and avoid Mar’ landing on top of me. So there you have it, another mountain myth confirmed.

Thomas Willis · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 0

Several climbers who fell have noted they fell upside down with their back to the wall.
Is there a reason leaders do nor wear a chest harness so as to remain upright during a fall - is there a disadvantage to wearing a chest harness?
Thanks

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

There has been AT LEAST one other thread on this issue, with several other war stories. I took a twenty footer at the Ice Park and the screw held fine. As long as you have a good placement in good ice, screws are generally pretty solid. If you have a tied off screw or crappy ice, all bets are off.

Just Solo · · Colorado Springs · Joined Nov 2003 · Points: 80

Oh man, never fallen, been seriously pumped, and plenty scared. I personally don't really wish to ever test a screw, though modern screws, in good ice, are pretty bombproof, as seen here. I wonder though, for every story we have here, is the opposite, where a screw pulled with dire consequences? Glad all here are good and no one was seriously injured.

I've seen a couple of falls, one resulted in a broken pelvis. Screw never had a chance, it was placed at the bottom of the upper headwall of Lincoln and the climber was well above. Put two tools in next to each other, both came out. Not pretty.

Wingman Winger · · Montrose, CO · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 0

Years ago I fell about 20' on one of those old Russian screws. It held but was bent! I climbed back up and was able to pick it up from where it had enlarged the screw hole. I know, I deserved it for climbing with such crap.

Five years ago I fell ~10 feet in the ice park and struck a ledge, bounced off and went another ~20 feet. My screw just above the ledge held and keep me from flying off into the river. Rescue and trip to MHH. three month recovery from broken and bent parts. Are we having fun yet?

I just need to get to be a better climber. I'm protecting the lower moves with more screws to compensate for my lack of ability. :-}

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

The other concern about falling, other than the screw holding, and probably just as important, is what you're going to hit or get snagged on when you fall. Falling with crampons and a couple of sharp tools is to be avoided. When I fell, I fortunately fell out backwards (tool popped when trying to place a screw) and I turned sideways in midair, which was good. I ended up smacking my hip on a less steep section below me which, had I landed feet first on, would have probably messed up my ankles good.

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

It seems like one only need read but 2-3 sentences into the stories to know what and why the accident happened (& how it could/should have been avoided). Common themes, underestimated and sometimes outright dismissed as a significant contributing factor by some authors are: "dull ice tools/crampons"; "geez, I took a 4,690' whipper - still don't know why but just walked away with a sprained ankle.....guess I'm lucky"; "stuck both tools in a bulge and surprise, surprise, they BOTH popped"; (similarly: "stuck both tools side by side and the ice had the gall to dinner plate"); "placed a screw in a bulge of ice and was shocked when it and the bulge popped off and broke me nose....and my girlfriend's"; "the screw broke" [naw.....they bend first...usually and because of bad placement/abuse]; "checked out the screamer I fell on and it only had 49 of the 51 stitches pulled out, so I said 'screw it' and kept on climbing", "went climbing with a friend who has never been ice climbing.....but is a good rock climber.....and he fell, jerking me upwards so hard that I hit the bottom of his crampons (and they were in his pack....he wasn't even wearing them!!!"; on and on and on.

Everything I know in life I've learned the hard way, so it's happened to me too; however, what struck me the most were comments like: "bomber ice", "solid blue ice"; "condition of ice is the most important thing to consider", etc. None of this is true in a single-phrase sense. It's the whole system you are building that you have to consider, is it not? What condition(s) were the lower screws placed in, single or double rope (someone criticized using 'skinny ropes' ???), screw length run of the rope(s). Perhaps one of the biggest sources of screw placement arguments is the angle in which they are placed (notwithstanding the ice conditions). Endless studies. (While winter is just getting started, I suggest picking up a copy of the late Craig Leubbben's "How to Ice Climb" book before it's too late). Also check out Mike Barter's video's.

I've yet to be persuaded (neither has Black Diamond nor REI who did their own testing besides Craig's) that a screw should be placed other than at a 15 to 20 degree angle LOWER THAN THE PERPENDICULAR LINE. (It's clear in the stories people posted that they are not aware of this, otherwise they likely would not have failed as described but maybe insufficient detail was not provided). Exceptions to this are melt-out conditions, sun directly on the screw/hanger (should put a packed "snowball" over it -- like a magnet, metal absorbs heat faster than one might think), slushy or running water behind the formation, in which case, the angle is probably best set ABOVE the perpendicular line. Other than that, and perhaps counterintuitively, the screw should be slanted DOWNWARDS. I've never taken a lead fall in over 40 years of ice climbing (not because I'm a groovy climber, rather, I was too damned scared to fall so I didn't)......but I've seen plenty others do it. It is absolutely amazing to see what looks like a bomber screw placed by a neighboring climbing partner suddenly rip from the ice in a leader fall when in fact, it was placed at an UPWARD (>15 degrees) angle. If you have absolutely no choice, then back it up with another screw above it, tied to the second. See Leubben on how to do this.

Ice failure causes one-fourth to two thirds of screws to pull below 2,000 lbs, less than the force generated by a hard leader fall. Saying it another way, those are misplaced screws in ice doomed to fail unless dealt with properly. If you've encountered rotten ice, don't give up; stay disciplined (even though pumped beyond pumped) and try to excavate deeper for better ice. It's usually there. Or, use the ice climber's axiom: "escape upwards toward safety", i.e., move on. If dinner plating, you have the choice of 'reading the ice' insofar how deep it is doing so and whether carving even more out for your guests below is worth the danger of sending the face-shredding saucers downwards.

Lots of talk about load limiters; while I carry a few Screamers, I try not to use them....almost never do.....they are only good for photos and to impress others at dinner parties who know nothing about ice climbing. "Yeah, and then we had to use 158 SCREAMERS to get up the route. I was screaming". I think they are too much of a "placebo" and provide some climbers with a very, very false sense of security. Craig Leubben will convince you of that. Build and think of your protection system w/o relying on them; good screws w/good hangers, slings, Quickdraws. Not only will it be safer, it will force you to think "deeper" about what you are doing. Finding good ice, moving on to find even better ice, make the rope(s) run easier & safer. Many will disagree with me; perhaps rightly so. I've fallen on them when rock climbing but it took a very rare smart attack for me to check them out weeks....if not longer....to see what happened to the threads. Opposss....

Last word on screws and "tie-offs": Seems like a lot in this string are tying off screws. I don't know the particular circumstances but if I have to tie off a screw, it's on the edge of what the British call "poor form". I picked the wrong place, wrong screw size or made a judgement error......I just hate tied off stuff. Tied off screws are often dangerous......again, Leubben has the statistics; if the tie-off slips (depending how far), the leverage placed on the screw far exceeds screw strength and quickly. Crank that puppy in (assuming you found the good ice....it's always there, you just have to find it) and MAKE SURE you fold the handle or knob back against the screw shaft. It's no secret -- but supposed to be -- that ropes have been cut by a falling climber because the rope got caught by the handle or knob. Now that's poor form.

Training is learning the rules, experience is learning the exceptions.

If you have not seen the video near the top of this discussion ("Fall from Glory to Grace") you should....and more than once. It's difficult to watch because Nathan (the very, very nice guy who agreed to let the filmmakers do a documentary on it) takes a real, non-staged 'don't look' ripper. I don't even let my dog watch it and I don't have a dog. Don't know if Gadd's leading discussion follows the clip here but you can find it on his site; excellent discussion by many in dissecting what went wrong, what went right (not much, except ER docs climbing next to Nathan). (Now, as for the belayer, he's another subject).

Tom-onator · · trollfreesociety · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 790
Warbonnet wrote:slushy or running water behind the formation, in which case, the angle is probably best set ABOVE the perpendicular line.
Hadn't heard about this application with water running behind the flow Warbonnet.
Could you explain more in detail or cite a reference please?
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Tom-onator wrote: Hadn't heard about this application with water running behind the flow Warbonnet. Could you explain more in detail or cite a reference please?
Tom-anator, thanks for the question. This issue is close to me because it resulted in the death of a friend….but I’ll get to that.

Here are a few references & citations you asked for; let’s see what the uber-experts have to say about running water behind ice, what it means, how or if it can be protected, but better yet, how to avoid it (if possible). Then I’ll tell you what happened to my friend. I know some members of this forum know the story.

The last explanation of how & why ice melts is perhaps the most interesting….stay with it.

As a preface, the notion of water running beneath ice involves a number of factors insofar as dealing with it: how thick, what type & condition is the ice and…..rather impossible to determine on the spot, how fast (rate), drop angle, thickness (how deep), width (across the ice beneath you), time (does it run all night or freeze, slow down, speed up, etc). How thick is the ice you intend to place a screw into? Will it touch the rock as it is screwed in and if so, are you aware of the consequences? Do you have hollow, hydroform ice tools, trigger activated….one filled with gin, the other with tonic….you have the cold water already……you might need a G&T or three while you’re puzzling your way out of this situation.

The “situation” has something to do with the temperature of the water and that in turn affects how fast it is melting the ice, something many don’t think about. I usually don’t think about it....I just avoid it (unless it's a solid-sided, hollow column, then I don't mind the sound of cascading water), usually at all costs, but I’m automagically listening for the tell-tale “thunk” of the ice tool…then I know I might be in the thin of it. The last of our experts’ articles below addresses the importance of water temperature beneath ice, how that affects ice quality which in turn of course should affect your choice of how to protect it…..or not.

Chris Harmston; Black Diamond
Myths, Cautions & Techniques of Ice Screw Placement
needlesports.com/catalogue/…

“….what is the ice quality? Is it detached, hollow, slushy, and/or rotten? If so, and this is the only option for protection, it may well be better to rely on the potential hooking/lever resistance ability of the screw rather than the holding power of the threads. (This is known as “strength versus placement angle”). Does the ice have running water under or on it? If so, you may have to worry about the screw melting out due to the water.

What we observed is that placing the screw in the direction of loading is significantly stronger. In fact, at 15 degrees from perpendicular the screws are over two times stronger when placed in the direction of load than when placed against the direction of load. A final word of caution relative to equalizing two screws. Ice generally fails horizontally. Placing two screws horizontally also increases the force on the screws due to the triangle force multiplier (American Triangle). Place the screws vertically with one screw above the other. This will give the best possible chance for both screws to hold”.

WARBONNET: I mentioned in an earlier comment that placing screws in vertical alignment if one must tie one off, then back it up, if possible, by placing another screw higher (say 14” to 16”; others will have other recommended distances & techniques…such as threads. These are my choice, but not “V” threads, rather “A” threads). One tied off screw backing up another tied off screw is, well, never mind. As Chris emphasizes, do not “back up” ice screws with horizontal placement….more on this in a bit.

Chris’ mentioning “the screw melting out due to the water” may draw a “huh, whattya mean melt out…..I’m freezin’”. In fact, even super cold water contains heat (simplified, called ‘specific heat’; everything has such a factor), more so than one might think; it’s this that eats away at ice far, far beyond (and beneath) the boundary of what one might think is solid ice. And you’re right on top of it (thinking,"now WHERE are my hollow hydroforms when I really need them?")

Note to those who may not know: A screw placed with the hanger lower than the screw tip is called a “positive angle” placement; a screw placed with the hanger higher than the tip is a “negative” placement. Negative versus positive placement of screw discussions-cum-random-tool-swinging-arguments (which is safer?, for example) is akin to the sum total of all arguments in the past, current and future of the universe.

Put that all together and Chris has already answered your question: if sketchy ice because, in the hypothetical we are talking about, i.e, water running behind ice, no need to place a screw at a positive angle because when weighted, it will pull out like a greased pig and hit your 5th G&T. Placing it at a negative angle (hanger up) MIGHT at least provide a placebo hallucination that you’re protected due to the “lever resistance” of the upward-angled screw. So, ‘lever resistance’ is different than ‘pull out resistance’ the latter of which relies more on the thread design, good ice and other factors.

Ice and Mixed Climbing: Modern Technique; 2003
Will Gadd
Chapter: “Ice Formation: Understanding the Medium”

“[However], if the ice is thin and the temperature well above freezing, melt water will get behind the ice, breaking the ice/rock bond and making smears and other features very unstable. If the ice is good and thick and water is running behind it, it still may be safe to climb short sections, but anytime that water is running behind ice and you can see that the ice is not attached to the rock at any point, it’s probably time to go rock climbing.”

Winter Climbing
Neil Gresham, Ian Parnell
Rockfax Publishing, 2009
Chapter: Ice, Style & Ethics

“Pay particular attention where you can see water running behind [the ice] as there is a very real danger of a full-scale collapse. Look out for the missing chunks or for major cracks. It may not give you another warning before it goes [even large areas of seemingly sound ice may suddenly and without warning result in catastrophic collapse]”.

Points on Ice:
Author unknown (Net source) but duly credited for great analysis
Information on how ice-climbs form, deform, and fail

iceclimb.com/science.html

Ice-climb Destruction

In a sense, all of the deformation processes of ice are destructive. For example, many pillar and curtain climbs succumb to their own creep by eventually fracturing near their top where tension overcomes inter-molecular bonding. However, the most destructive entity at work on ice-climbs is water itself. Liquid water has an enormously high heat capacity. That is, liquid water can absorb, or emit, a lot of energy without much change in its temperature. Many high-flow waterfalls won’t freeze simply because not enough energy can be carried away by the surrounding cold air and ground. Liquid water can also melt a lot of ice. Once water starts flowing over, under, or through ice, it deteriorates and weakens quickly. The melting of ice will also destroy an ice-climb, and ice melts in a curious way; It doesn’t solely melt from the surface inward, but melts throughout at all of the crystal boundaries. Melting initiates the percolation of liquid water that in turn creates a vacuum and pulls in air.

A white color reveals the presence of air, and is indicative of poor cohesion of ice crystals, low density, and weak ice. Eventually a melting ice-fall will reach a consistency of spring snow if it doesn’t collapse first. Also, the percolating water often winds up at the underlying rock-ice interface where it may accumulate into significant flow to melt even more ice. Melting will therefore be greatest at the areas where the ice adheres, or once adhered, to the underlying substrate, and will be hidden from view. If running water is audible, the ice will likely be poorly affixed to the underlying rock, or dirt. Be wary of any gurgling sounds.”

WARBONNET: Where I live, we call such “holes”, collapsed or not (often known because they show up as part of climb itself; count on it) “sucker holes”. They aren’t named for ‘suckers’ (dummies) nor do they ‘suck you into them’, rather, they suck the life out of you. They are thin-rimmed and can be undercut for amazing distances but not for the same reasons snow fields are thin near rocks – that’s from thermal warming of the rock. In a sense however, the ‘rim’ of sucker holes are the result of thermal activity, just a different kind. They can be found in vertical or flat-ish ice. I think the worse place they show up is in about 40-60 degree ice and are super dangerous because people aren’t paying attention. I’m always listening for water but that doesn’t mean I’m going to stop; I’m listening to what it’s trying to tell me and that means skirt that thing, whether I can see it or not; that’s where I’m going. (Remember your belayer; don't end up where you unwittingly force your belayer to cross the danger zone. Just as in protecting a traverse, use directionals if necessary to keep your good buddy(s) safe). As Gadd says, short sections may be OK but don’t hang around. I’ve looked into them just like a crevasse is so seductive but I’ve done so only to see what they look like. Somewhat harmless looking (?) but it’s not unusual to be laying on 16” (or less) of ice, undercut 30-40 feet, swift water, touchable rock only an arm’s length away. You don’t place a screw and slither back……you just slither.

It was a sucker hole that my friend and fellow guide fell into when a two person rope team ignored our warnings; the leader skirted the top-most edge (which was invisible but the gurgling water clearly audible from where we were, about 70 feet above them; that's a long ways to hear flowing water beneath snow). The visible hole itself was only 25' by 18' +/-. Mr. Cool was about 40 feet on the high side of the hole on about a 50 degree slope when he pulled out a 22 cm, almost screwed it to the hanger before the upper lip broke away but the leader jumped to the side of the collapse. The belayer was below the hole, the leader now slipping towards it. My friend and I were soloing so no gear to worry about; he took off after him, miraculously caught him & tried to swing him away from the hole by catching the leader’s rope. Unfortunately, my friend was whiplashed into the hole, leader’s rope in hand; the lead climber was grabbed by a couple of others who happened to be at the right spot at the right time. Maybe 20 people instantly showed up (hugely popular & over crowded climb – notoriously so) but we needed 10,000 people and there weren’t 10,000 to help but we worked like we were 10,000. He was sucked under the ice about 35 feet and between the rock, only a silly 3 feet separation but freezing water and ice too thick to hack through to get him in time – many tried – and despite his heroic efforts to hold on to the rope (many pulled but impossible to pull hard enough nor for him to hang on) – he was wedged in – all we could do while trying everything possible – no one ever gave up – we were shouting and he was shouting -- was listen to him drown and freeze to death at seemingly the same moment. It was all over in less than 20 minutes.

So, I’m rather careful when around water running beneath ice. I’m not paranoid about it, but the few times I’ve been caught (sometimes down climbing at night off a route, the descent of which I’m not totally familiar with), I don’t use screws near the thin stuff. I use my Candella and carefully build an Anderson thread (nothing against Abalokov’s; I just don’t like the “sideways angle” Chris talks about above – I think it would put too much pull on too much ice.) Just my opinion but I think Anderson’s are better and for that matter, if I were caught high on thin ice with flowing water beneath, I’d probably use an Anderson over a screw anyway and back off and/or sideways to safety....and my doubled-up, trigger-activated hydroform tools - with straws. What would you do – am interested.

Find the sucker holes. And they aren't just on the vertical; more often on less angled terrain.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Ice Climbing
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