Thanks for that sweet biner!!!

Highlander wrote:My guess is the one's who are opposed to fixed draws or project draws 1) don't sport climb 2) don't climb hard enough to appreciate draws hanging 3) don't bolt new routes or contribute anything productive to the climbing community.

+1

Highlander wrote:My guess is the one's who are opposed to fixed draws or project draws 1) don't sport climb 2) don't climb hard enough to appreciate draws hanging 3) don't bolt new routes or contribute anything productive to the climbing community.

Lolz, so your assertion is that those that disagree with project draws are lazy, weak climbers, and have no idea what they are talking about- simply because they disagree with you.

Sounds like 2nd grader logic- win the argument by saying - "ur all stupid!"

SDY wrote: Lolz, so your assertion is that those that disagree with project draws are lazy, weak climbers, and have no idea what they are talking about- simply because they disagree with you. Sounds like 2nd grader logic- win the argument by saying - "ur all stupid!"

Just stating the facts as I see them. Sorry you disagree, you obviously have never climbed at any popular climbing areas where project draws are accepted.

Highlander wrote: Just stating the facts as I see them. Sorry you disagree, you obviously have never climbed at any popular climbing areas where project draws are accepted.

Hahaha, you are proving your foolishness. What else do you know about me?

SDY wrote: Hahaha, you are proving your foolishness. What else do you know about me?

Who's more foolish the fool or the fool who follows him?

and who's really the 2nd grader and being insulting. BTW I never called anyone weak or lazy. The fact is that it accepted practice at most major climbing areas where there are bolts for there to be project draws left on routes. Most climbers appreciate this and clip those draws that are left on the route and move on and climb a different route, if you don't like to climb on pre-placed draws climb another route or go to a different crag, don't steal someones draws.

OutLaw wrote:It is not about abandoning them it is the fact you are doing something like double parking. It is arrogant to think you can spread your crap all over the place and have no consideration for others use.

I completely agree leaving your sh*t all over the place is reprehensible. But if somebody double-parks, am I then entitled to take their vehicle as my own? No. Am I entitled to reprimand them for it? Or push it out of the way? Certainly! Which reminds me of my favorite old prank, moving VW Beetles around a few yards with a small group of people.

I like to think I'm not totally unreasonable- if you find a $5 nut I lost in the bushes, it's yours.

Perhaps the reason I feel this way is, I would rather the community stay as far as possible from seizing other people's gear as possible. Every one of my friends has had sling's-worth of gear stolen- out of backpacks, off the ground. How far is "This jerk left his draws on the route, they are mine now" from "This jerk left his triple set of cams near the base of the route, they are mine now"? Not far enough.

I hate not being able to trust people.

This bitch and moan issue comes up ad nauseum with the same old tired arguments. If ya do not want yer shit taken, don't leave it at the crag when yer done projecting for the day. If ya see shit left at the crag, do not be an asshole and take it for yourself.

I really like the idea that weak climbers simply can't comprehend why leaving project draws is acceptable because they are weak. This idea was obviously born from the fact that draws are frequently cleaned from easier routes but left on harder routes, but some people on here seem to imply that the path taken by those who learn to climb hard also purifies their soul in some way and opens their mind to a superior set of ethics that only hard climbers can appreciate. Some other transformations that occur during the path to enlightenment:

10. The morality to walk past a windowsill with a cooling apple pie and not eat the pie.
9. The diplomacy to negotiate a long lasting peace in the middle east.
8. The spirituality to counsel priests and rabbis during crises of faith.
7. The fortitude to break-dance fight your way out of any 3rd world prison.
6. The self-restraint to not check your drawers in public after a suspicious fart.
5. The willpower to eat just 2 pingles potato chips (only Chuck Norris can eat just one).
4. The wisdom to realize that if the ladyboy is really, really hot then its not gay.
3. The determination to chew through your own tongue and bleed to death if you're ever bound and gagged and forced to watch an episode of Keeping up with the Kardashians.
2. The strength to wrestle a pair of 28" skinny jeans onto your 34" waist.
1. and the most important transformation of all: The where-with-all to realize that the gift of friends is the most important gift of all....especially that episode where Joey buys Chandler a duck.

CJC wrote:Sport climbers...what about draws left hanging for years (e.g. Rainbow Wall in Eldo) How long before they're considered abandoned property? They're ugly and marring the beauty of an otherwise gorgeous piece of stone. And no one is using them. Please remove your gear when you leave the crag, or at least don't whine when it's gone.

I don't consider myself a sport climber, just a climber, but If draws left hanging for years or worn out, dangerous then why not remove them. Rifle has lots of perma draws that are left in place and maintained by the climbing community, when they are worn out they are replaced.

Typically at many sport climbing areas someone may leave project draws on the route for the season, they are removed once they have done the route or the season is over. It is accepted practice for others to climb on those draws that are left on the route. Not okay to take the draws.

An individual working on a new route (FA) may leave draws on the route as they are working the route or cleaning the route to be made safe for others. Once they have done the route and deem it safe for others they then remove their draws for others to enjoy.

I personally enjoy draws that are already hanging on a route as long as they are in good shape. Allows me to get more pitches climbed in a day, no cleaning involved, which makes makes for good training which is what I use sport climbing for.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I don't find much value in arguing with folks who use their "ethics" to justify stealing.

yep

CJC wrote: Be nice if whoever put em up would clean em but whatever they obviously don't care or need em. They're trash now, and will be regarded as such.

Haven't been to that part of Eldo in many years, but isn't Rainbow Wall a traverse? Might be pretty hard to clean. Maybe a good candidate for permadraws instead of tat. Monument and Your Mother could probably use permadraws too.

Anyway, they're historic tat now, just like all the manky fixed pins, so I think you need to go through ACE before you can remove them :-)

Highlander wrote:My guess is the one's who are opposed to fixed draws or project draws 1) don't sport climb 2) don't climb hard enough to appreciate draws hanging 3) don't bolt new routes or contribute anything productive to the climbing community.

Bad guess

Well this has become a shit show and another waste of our time. Sorry about you stolen draws Ian.

1)Don't steal
2)Don't act like you don't know when it's stealing and when it's booty.
3)Don't be a dick (mostly aimed at the haters in this thread)

4 pages nice. the city is not a sport area so unless the first bolt was tagged it was booty, end of story.

Miike you killed this post. nice work.

In response to your statement though, there are more sport route in the City of Rocks and Castle Rock State Park than there are traditional routes. Im not sure but that would generally make an area a sport climbing area in my book.

And I finally did send the route, so no more draws will be hanging, your welcome.

In it's heyday The City was considered one of the first sport areas in the U.S. The fact that many sport climbers today are afraid to lead in The City is a testament to how far the 'sport' has regressed (or advanced, depending on your POV).

Release a murderer with a slap on the hand, and they'll probably kill again. Complaining about the gear YOU left on the wall is probably not gonna get it back. To label someone a thief for feeling coaxed in by you just ain't fair! You just bought their newly-acquired draws, so "who's the bitch, now?" Is what it all comes down to. I bet you won't leave em up again, unless it's a crazy overhang or a ceiling. You can gripe on threads and hope your quick draw thief sees it, but I wouldn't doubt if they're rolling on the floor, laughing, and rubbing there sticky Lil hands together for the next pitch of booty. I, personally, do feel the ethics when I see THAT much gear on a wall. It's expensive, it takes time (money) to earn all of that. The only gear I'm guilty of taking is an old bail biner I climbed past on the second half of a 5.10 sport route I sent with one hang. Keep to your ethics.

Anticipating criticism for my choice of term motivates me to counteract. Roofs are surfaces that face up, ceilings are the latter. I don't understand why people looked at a wall of rock that faced the ground and thought "roof" LOL! But I won't label anyone illiterate, it's perfectly understood as to what feature is being communicated