Lowering off anchors, rehashhhh

Face it the only way to protect the gear is to always down climb.

Guy Keesee wrote: Places like New Jack City, Zappa Cliff, Valhalla , The Hi-Desert and any place where the anchors are chains, the last climber down, raps.

Guy, just curious, not arguing- why would chains be any different?

All right. Let's see if we can go 10 pages on how to get off a single pitch climb with bolted anchors. Apparently it IS rocket science.

Mark... at those places the chains are small, a 10 mil barley fits. The rope clearly will not glide like if through Hooks, open shuts or even large cold shuts. Or course you may lower but its not a pretty thing.

I really like the set up that Scott Ayers has been installing in AZ for the last few years. There is no way to lower or TR, you must put your stuff on it to TR. Those anchors are going to be good for like a 100 years or more.

And to add, even though I like them, I would not equip a steep climb with them.

This is an entertaining thread.... back to the your going to die or the NO YOUR GOING TO DIE.... back n forth.

Guy Keesee wrote:Mark... at those places the chains are small, a 10 mil barley fits. The rope clearly will not glide like if through Hooks, open shuts or even large cold shuts. Or course you may lower but its not a pretty thing. I really like the set up that Scott Ayers has been installing in AZ for the last few years. There is no way to lower or TR, you must put your stuff on it to TR. Those anchors are going to be good for like a 100 years or more.

I was going to kid you about using a 10 mil and being out of date, then realized that even though I have a brand new 8.9, I'm still placing rigid stemmed friends that I bought 30 years ago.

Do you have any photos of the AZ anchors? I can't picture it.

"Lower when you can. Rap when you must..." - M Sprague

"Situation dictates which method one uses. All methods are evaluated for safety, convenience and applicability to the situation then the best method selected." - ErikShepd

"A little communication will go a long way." - Daniel Winder

I believe ^ these three quotes ^ to be the best advice so far. I also believe that Daniel's advice could go a long way in solving a lot of issues.

Guy Keesee wrote: This is an entertaining thread.... back to the your going to die or the NO YOUR GOING TO DIE.... back n forth.

Ya, this reminds me of "Dude where's my car"

What does mine say? Sweet!

What does mine say? Dude!

What does mine say! SWEET!

WHAT DOES MINE SAY!!!! DUDE!!!!!!

nicelegs wrote:So if the dude with the drill and the backpack full of steel says lower away, who then are you saving the wear for?

Alas, not all climbing areas have folks around eagerly waiting to replace worn anchors. So we try to be good neighbors by rubbing weighted ropes through our own gear when lowering, then the cleaner raps.

It is our meager attempt to save the resources that someone else has taken the time, effort and money to put up.

Safety issues between the different methods, well, like all climbing, take personal responsibility for your actions.

Dylan B. wrote:I prefer to rap, when practicable, for aesthetic reasons. I like being up there on my own, with only my own clear head to rely upon. It's a moment of independence in what is otherwise an entirely co-dependent sport.

one of the most rational responses in this thread.

Dallas R wrote: Alas, not all climbing areas have folks around eagerly waiting to replace worn anchors.

I'm sure there are if you look and ask around. If you have a local group, donate to them. If not, organize something yourself, I'm sure there are people around with drills sitting in their closets. Just offer to buy the hardware and perhaps beer/pizza for their time (most likely they'd be happy to do it for free or in exchange for a belay maybe). A lot of times those guys and gals with drills either got busy with their lives, are heavily invested with time and money on new routes, or are just unaware of worn/bad anchors. All you have to do is ask. Replacing a Q link or a biner at the bottom of the chains is not a rocket science.

Mark Dixon.... I wish I had a photo.

The top is nothing more than a regular bolt hanger with a chain about 6-7 inches long. Then a Rap Hanger is drilled so the eye is at the same level as the chain bottom.

And its pretty small chain .... 10 mm rope just fits. (I own a lot of ropes and the "big beefy- hang dog special" is some sort of 9.8)

The beauty of this set up is- nothing will wear out, you cant TR on this. Its sort of hard to pull the cord down, unless you walk off to the side and take some of the friction off of the RAP Hanger.

How I decide: if the top anchor is obviously setup such that it looks like the developer intended the final climber to lower-off (e.g. mussy hooks, ram's horns, or some other obvious, easy to use without doing any knot work at the top), I will take that to imply the developer expects the final climber to lower off. Otherwise, I'll generally rap off.

I often go cragging with a group so rapping off also frees up your belayer to go do something else -- lead another climb, TR another climb, have lunch or a snack, belay someone else, or whatever. Working just as a pair that doesn't matter as much, but in a triple or group, that is a nice courtesy, too.

Heres a simple question

If you always lower how will you keep you rapping skills current or learn them so its second nature

On multi its absolutely and utterly important that you can rap confidently without fumbling around and quickly as well if you need to bail due to conditions

The best place to practice this over and over again is at the crag ... Not learn and practice it when youre a few hundred metres off the deck with the wind blowing, in the cold and the sun setting

And before someone starts yapping again ... Keep in mind that i generally lower when cragging

Except when rope soloing where yr rapping down after every lap

Just like folks who ALWAYS insist that the grigri is the only way to belay and get dropped because their partners never develop proper brake hand control ... Thos who insist that one should ALWAYS lower miss the point that many folks in squamish at least rap simply to keep their skills practiced for things beyond the crag

If youve climbed moderate multi in squamish youve seen the gongshows of folks learning or making basic mistakes on rap because they dont practice it enough while at the crag

;)

one time at bandcamp I started to rap down and realized I forgot how so I had my partner lower me. I practice every day now and know that when I go back to bandcamp this will never happen again, rain or shine I will rap down.

FYI, we are keeping track. If you replied in either the negative or affirmative for total domination; you are a frucking noob, not to be trusted and very suspect. For those of you who support the total negative, you are the worst and will probably die through ignorance. For those of you who support the total positive, you are probably a sporto noob who will live longer but arrogance will be your downfall.

For those of us in between, seriously, when was the last time you didn't get lowered off your anchors on a single pitch climb? And we all know you don't get rapped down on a big one, so the total affirmative is admitting that they have never really left the ground.

Another important question: is your rope really that precious?

Then you suck at climbing.

Deal with it.

Only wanking idiots protect their rope. Real climbers climb with and heavily use their rope, and then they buy another one, every frucking year. If not, then you are not a real climber. I will give you my beat rope so you can protect it into the 22nd century, sucker.

Now that I am done insulting the entire crowd, I am out.

Peace out while the beast is out.

doligo wrote: I'm sure there are if you look and ask around. If you have a local group, donate to them. … A lot of times those guys and gals with drills either got busy with their lives, are heavily invested with time and money on new routes, or are just unaware of worn/bad anchors.

I try, I have had mixed results. Some are quite indifferent, they no longer climb those mid-level routes, so they don’t bother with them. Some are quite concerned. I understand the local bolters tendency to grow in the sport and concentrate on new routes, or get so good at climbing they no longer climb the mid-level routes. Like you say, busy with their lives, I totally understand.

I have ordered anchors chains through some local stores associated with active groups and donated them anonymously. I also make a meager donation to the ASCA; safeclimbing.org/help.htm

Part of my ineffectiveness in this arena is that we constantly travel, so we are not in an area long enough to establish relationships. It takes time to become accepted in most climbing communities. A week or two doesn’t get the job done. Another down side to how I climb is that I rarely do the same route ever, so I have no idea if the bolts ever get repaired/replaced.

doligo wrote: If not, organize something yourself,

Back to not spending enough time in a given area.

I would love to learn to bolt properly. But there are a number of variations based on climate, locals understand their climate and their rock, I would have to rely on the weather channel. Strike one. Strike two is the whole retro bolting issue. “Don’t mess with my turf”, how would you feel if some noob from Florida yanked your placement and put in two spanky new Metolius Rappel Bolts in shiny orange? Ok,. I wouldn’t do that, but the idea being I don’t want to tread on other peoples turf, I am a guest in their house and try hard not to make a mess. Strike three is that I am relatively new to climbing, still trying to figure out the best way to set a Camelot etc... I probably have no business bolting; yet.

doligo wrote: Replacing a Q link or a biner at the bottom of the chains is not a rocket science.

This I do, I carry 4 Petzl SS Quick Links. When/where it seems appropriate I donate them. I use the more expensive Petzl quick links because they are rated. I try to do things right. petzl.com/en/Sport/Anchors/…
If the locals don’t like them they can be removed.

I always thought that you lower on single pitches and rap on multiple ones.

My partner is primarily a trad climber. However, he is really into the whole lowering thing. Even on multi-pitch, once the rap is set up, he prefers to lower the first climber - apparently, it's an alpine thing. He got the whole belay/rap system based on GriGri + tube device for the pair and lowering is integral to it. Don't ask, I still got tons to undestand and learn.

No doubt that ethics on rapping v lowering vary a ton from area to area. However, I think it's worth noting that the practice used around Ouray works so smooth that I'm not sure why you'd need to complicate it.

Great developers, among which are highlander and Dolgio, put up quality routes with the most convenient anchor set up applicable, usually mussies or lower biners. All the locals assume the climber is to be lowered after the end of the climb, and confusion is totally avoided.

Some of our crags are next to loud roads, some are as overhanging as they are tall, and still some are adventure crags up in the alpine. This doesn't really change anything. Assume the climber is to be lowered. Avoid confusion. Climb safe and smart. Deal with everything else situationally.

I'm just amazed that people are apparently getting dropped because the belayer thought the climber was going to rap? Who just takes someone off belay without communication?

AND EVEN WORSE, who is out there cleaning and doesn't test the system (weight the rope) before going back on the belayer? Are these people just simply not going in direct when cleaning?

If you've:

A: communicated when your partner
B: tested the system

how can you fuck this up?

If for whatever reason, you can't do BOTH of those two things (maybe you're both wearing headphones?), then put your life in your own hands and just rap.

Also, respect local ethics. Without a doubt, some (most) places don't have a band of Bosch wielding philanthropist that want to dedicate their wall time and money to replacing anchors.

Otherwise, I don't really care what you do. If you want to lower off a sharp roof and burn through your ropes sheath then by all means go for it.

Lowering is completely safe if you do it properly. Rapping is completely safe if you do it properly.

What amazes me though, is that in the context of "what if you can't clearly communicate with your partner", so many people are advocating to default to lowering. If communication is good, either rapping or lowering is fine. If there is a miscommunication, rapping is clearly the safer choice.

If I lower when my partner thinks I'm rapping, I could be killed. If I rap when my partner thinks I'm lowering, I'm still perfectly safe.