tying in: Bowline with backup

good pro wrote:Yes England just wrap any limb

Ok back to your YouTube and snacks useless TROLL!

Who's not contributing to this forum
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................................... TROLL..............

Tieing in with a bowline is as outdated as a payphone. For me it would be a deal breaker in a climbing partnership. Very experienced climbers had "tieing with bowline accidents". Figure 8 with Yosemite finish is the best thing that happened since sliced cheese. Even poorly dressed figure 8 is a lot safer than a bowline tied in a hurry.

Thinking that a bowline is dangerous is as outdated as bowline vs. figure eight discussions on Mountain Project. For me it would be a deal breaker in a climbing partnership.

so for the interest of "pubic safety" why doesnt everyone list their bowline variation they tie in with

lets see how many variations we get ... all of them would be "safe" of course

;)

John Byrnes wrote:...The big advantage of the Figure-8 is that it's easy to teach, learn and visually check...

Exactly. I've been sailing for over 40 years, and that's where I learned knots. Sailors have used the bowline for safety-critical applications for literally thousands of years, a length of experience that makes rock climbing's history trivial by comparison. The Flemish bend (which climbers renamed the Figure 8) has been well known to sailors since the days of ancient Sumeria too. (No idea what the Sumerians called it.) It's seldom used in marine applications because it can be very hard to untie after being heavily loaded, especially in a wet line.

I've followed all the tales of tie-in knot failures that I could find to their original sources, and they all seem to come down to some variation of "didn't finish/dress/set the knot". Both 8s and bowlines are represented there. ISTM that the lesson is that if you don't actually tie it, it isn't a knot, is it?

So, because of the human error factor the Flemish bend is probably a better choice for most climbing, particularly in a gym or where relatively inexperienced or infrequent climbers are involved. Someone who works with knots all the time can tell at a glance that a bowline doesn't look right, but pretty much anyone can tell if a Flemish bend doesn't look like a numeral 8. Plus under most conditions kernmantel climbing rope won't seize up nearly as badly as double-braid or 3-strand in a marine environment, so an 8 can be untied after loading - though it may not always be easy.

Still, if someone who actually knows knots wants to use a bowline, they ain't gunna die. (At least, not because of that.)

bearbreeder wrote:so for the interest of "pubic safety" why doesn't everyone list their bowline variation they tie in with lets see how many variations we get ... all of them would be "safe" of course ;)

Bowline with Yosemite finish then barrel knot. For top-roping, a single bowline, for leading/multipitch, a double bowline. Double bowline because there is lots of information now on the ability of knots to absorb some fall energy, and I believe that with more rope in the knot that the double bowline will absorb more energy. Just a hunch though.

I don't climb with single ropes enough to switch over, but if I did I'd use the rethreaded bowline, which seems to be the best of all the knots. But it puts two strands through the harness tie-in points, and that's four strands if you are using two ropes, which is gettin' a little crowded.

rgold wrote: Bowline with Yosemite finish then barrel knot. For top-roping, a single bowline, for leading/multipitch, a double bowline. Double bowline because there is lots of information now on the ability of knots to absorb some fall energy, and I believe that with more rope in the knot that the double bowline will absorb more energy. Just a hunch though. I don't climb with single ropes enough to switch over, but if I did I'd use the rethreaded bowline, which seems to be the best of all the knots. But it puts two strands through the harness tie-in points, and that's four strands if you are using two ropes, which is gettin' a little crowded.

Are all of your climbing partners just as proficient as you are when it comes to checking your knots?

Abram Herman wrote:Thinking that a bowline is dangerous is as outdated as bowline vs. figure eight discussions on Mountain Project. For me it would be a deal breaker in a climbing partnership.

It would be best for you to pair up with somebody who themselves tie in with a bowline. At least they will have some idea about how to check it for you.

Well clearly I opened (or reopened) a massive can of worms here. To all those who are tired of such discussion, I'm sorry.

But I've learned a lot from this thread. I think knowing some bowline variations would be good for me. I now also know how to do a Yosemite finish on a fig-8, which I'll experiment with. I haven't taken any lead falls yet but will likely be doing so this week so I'll see how I feel about the fig-8 then.

I do very much like the concept of the retrace bowline, so I'll spend a little time practicing that. It seems it has some of the benefits of the figure 8 and some of the bowline, though it is possibly a little more time consuming to tie and a little more bulky overall.

Bowlines are fine as long as you back it with a figure 8

^^^^^^ +1 ^^^^^^^

Put down the bottle and go to sleep.

Michael Schneider wrote:I do not care that my style offend s punctuation is for desk top this thing I'm using now sucks and I have a short history of ranting here I will go away again but just to add if you do not have a harness and wrap a rope around your self to climb on belay then it's what kind of knott to use I think and .......I am just lucky that's all that has kept me safe I have been climbing at least twice as long as you and was only trying to give the idea of mentoring a noOb a try see what I get for that learn by trial and terror it is more fun that way and my knowledge is of no use or interest see you outside

Why not focus your attention on mentoring regarding subjects other than the dogmatic bowline? Such as French free techniques to aid in speed ascends?

darn good points insults and slander
speed and French free I will leave that for some one else