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Climber assists person who fell, then gets a citation from Forest Service

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

I initially felt the same way. There's a lot of us that work a rescue and rely on quick access provided by climbers on scene. Some times it can be a critical part of saving someone.

But, when he jumped in on the rescue knowing they were already on scene and didn't want him on the wall to begin with and told him that, that's not a good idea. Being able to communicate with everyone working on the wall is a key component of safety. I guess they did have a problem with heli safety because of this. That's really not good.

Again, I also thought the whole thing was blown out of proportion because of responder ego, but after medical & response teams debriefed the events in a fair manner, he jumped in on the rescue.

Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981

Can't tell if some people are reading a different post by Wes or if they don't know that they're still wearing their confirmation-bias glasses.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

"When I arrived at the top of Maginot Line, there were 3 Burke County Search and Rescue personnel on scene."

I would have to believe this is where they felt their toes were getting stepped on. Once SAR is on scene anyone entering the rescue situation could potentially become a new victim or impair rescue attemps. Would SAR not be responsible with what is taking place at the scene? Competent or not they would be thinking of reducing variables as much as possible and the "friends" just added more.

I'm not saying one way or the other right or wrong, but this fact right here throws a kink in the story.

Glad everyone came out the other end without anything worse than what has been stated.

Andrew L · · Austin, TX · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 0
BigFeet wrote:"When I arrived at the top of Maginot Line, there were 3 Burke County Search and Rescue personnel on scene." I would have to believe this is where they felt their toes were getting stepped on. Once SAR is on scene anyone entering the rescue situation could potentially become a new victim or impair rescue attemps. Would SAR not be responsible with what is taking place at the scene? Competent or not they would be thinking of reducing variables as much as possible and the "friends" just added more. I'm not saying one way or the other right or wrong, but this fact right here throws a kink in the story. Glad everyone came out the other end without anything worse than what has been stated.
From the R&I article on it: "Hawkins said that all emergency personnel were OK with the WFR’s initial decision to descend and assist DePew." - rockandice.com/lates-news/c…
Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241
lou wrote:The dude in the way is a know it all poser... deserved the citation.. has attitude... thinks he's above the rescue workers... most likely is a total dork... get out of freakin way.. get away from the rescue team... u are not in charge (sorry).. take all your experience and certs. and patches.. and join a first responder team if you are so hot.. we get sooo freakin tired of dumb ass civilians who because they are first on scene think they are in charge and have a stake in the game... go take your selfi pic and step away... your were not a hero.. just an idiot makin trouble.. lou
Step away from your arrogance much?

You're either a classless troll or a cock wad. I guess it takes a wad to think packaging somebody up for actual help is a big deal.
BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

The rock and Ice article has an interesting contradiction.

The end of the second paragraph, and Hawkins' quote.

SAR in cya mode?

Joe G · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 0

Lou is spot on! To many dumb asses taking a couple of weeks training thinking they are hot shit. I have my WFR cert and it is a great skill to have and defiantly is great for stabilizing a patient in the back country till help arrives but once it does get the fuck out of the way unless they request help carrying a litter ect. In the trades we say you can't have dimes holding up dollars this applies in the real world as well. Props to the guy for stabilizing the climber and helping till the first responders arrived. After that he was in the wrong and deserves the fine. The first responders have enough to deal with they don't need no it alls hovering around.

Joe

Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143

It is kind of mind boggling how many opinions are getting spouted by people in this thread who have not done any homework on the matter, just read a few headlines, skimmed an article or two and started spewing.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

Up thread there is a first hand account of the whole ordeal by the friend/wfr/the one fined. Two articles were linked from this thread also.

Are we missing something, Alex?

Edit to add:
What a cluster!

We have the SAR group that give conflicting statements, appear to not correctly control many factors, successfully rescue an injured climber, among other things, and in the end felt the need to exacerbate an already emotional experience.

On the other side we have someone who, in some respects cannot be blamed, came to the aid of an injured friend, jumped in front of the fire fighters to put out the fire, did a commendable job of said rescue, and got a nasty and public citation out of his noble deed.

Pretty cruddy all the way around, but came out a happier ending than it could have. It is good that the victim had resources in the immediate area that knew how to help.

This is what I would be grateful for. All of us keyboard, warrior, climbers would jump to help a fellow climber or any others - hopefully. I would defend, and pay anyone's citation in this situation.

Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60
Joe G wrote:Lou is spot on! To many dumb asses taking a couple of weeks training thinking they are hot shit. I have my WFR cert and it is a great skill to have and defiantly is great for stabilizing a patient in the back country till help arrives but once it does get the fuck out of the way unless they request help carrying a litter ect. In the trades we say you can't have dimes holding up dollars this applies in the real world as well. Props to the guy for stabilizing the climber and helping till the first responders arrived. After that he was in the wrong and deserves the fine. The first responders have enough to deal with they don't need no it alls hovering around. Joe
And how exactly was he supposed to leave the scene? If you actually read everything, or hell...even watched the video, you can clearly see that he wasn't going anywhere by the time SAR was on the actual scene of the accident and not a hundred feet above the patient. And they even said the SAR that were first to the top of the cliff had allowed him to continue down.

I suppose he could have untied and started free soloing a new route since SAR was on the regular route. But, that idea seems pretty fucking stupid to me.
Andrew L · · Austin, TX · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 0
Eliot Augusto wrote: And they even said the SAR that were first to the top of the cliff had allowed him to continue down.
This is unclear. The R&I story has conflicted quotes (as someone else pointed out). The R&I article says this initially, "When these friends topped out, the Burke County EMS was already at the cliff top, too, rigging rescue lines. DePew’s friends were asked not to rappel to DePew, but the WFR ignored the request and rappelled to DePew anyway." Further down, it says "Hawkins said that all emergency personnel were OK with the WFR’s initial decision to descend and assist DePew. " From the WFR's account, "I immediately inquired as to who was in charge. Their response was incoherent. They did not know who was in charge, they did not have a plan, and they did not offer me any plan or directive. Fearing for my friend and unsure what these three gentlemen could possibly do for him, I proceeded to set up a rappel to go down to Jackson. At no time did they direct me to not descend to the victim."

There are three possible scenarios presented: 1) SAR was OK with the WFR rappelling down (the Hawkins quote), 2) SAR told him specifically not to do it (the unattributed line from the R&I article), or 3) they did not give him the go-ahead, but didn't try to stop him either (the WFR's account). This isn't unusual in high-stress situations with multiple parties. First-hand testimony is notoriously unreliable.

The likeliest scenario to me is #3: they neither tried to stop him nor okayed it. If they were incapable of enacted a timely rescue, that was certainly the correct course of action. If they were capable, going down there could've done more harm than good. Or it could've led to a more timely rescue. Who knows.

Whether or not him going down there was the correct course of action, I don't know, but it seems clear to me that, once he was down there and SAR was on his line, it was unreasonable to expect him to clear the area at that point.

Edit: I misread the quoted reply.
Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60
Andrew L wrote: This is unclear.
Regardless of this, I believe the WFR made the right call. I'm also pretty sure 3 SAR could convince or otherwise compel a bystander not to get involved, otherwise the punishment would have been far more severe.

I don't see why it's even in question. The WFR had assisted in saving the life of somebody and the whole ordeal took a couple of hours, most of it with the WFR sitting around out of the way. He helped somebody, the officials got to the ledge, he found a corner and sat in it until it was all over, everyone else got out without issue. If there was more than conjecture about the obstruction of a rescue, then we would have heard a lot more about it.

On the other side of the argument, there are things that may be been a contributing factor like the WFR's rope not being a strong enough rope to handle the weight of a stretcher, patient, and other gear. But, that should been handled when the rescuer got to the end of his rope. And probably a dozen other things that a SAR does slightly different than normal climbers do.

I think the best question is: Would this even be an issue if the 3 SAR members didn't get there first?
Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981

Dude, Michael, you ok?

(edit: based upon a now deleted post)

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419

Yeah yeah I'm okay trying to use a sub standard tablet to post,
Too much of everything is just enough .
incident reports ? Tragedy narrowly averted.
Thank you for asking deweese.

Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143

BigFeet,

Not talking about you and your well thought out, reasoned, informed opinions. My point was basically that even with all the 'facts', it isn't a particularly cut and dry situation.

mustardtiger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 20

He isn't going to have to pay the fine. This is being blown out if proportion.

sherb · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 60

Oh no, so Ranger Crisp, who died just 2 days later in a shootout, was a good guy after all - who issued the citation to block an arrest, a la Sleeping Beauty style (instead of dying as the evil witch cursed, the good fairy changed the curse to sleeping for 100 years).

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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