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Best place to practice sport falls in Boulder Canyon or nearby

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Ray Lovestead wrote:Good luck. 5.8 and vertical is hard to find in Boulder canyon. Best bet: The climbing gym. Second idea: North Table Mtn. The routes are a bit steeper and you could probably find something that fits your needs.
+1 for Golden cliffs AKA No. Table Mt.
Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60

Climb harder stuff than you are used to, and get your falls in. Get your ass kicked for a while and get angry and mad. When you're good and mad, crush the route. Keep doing that until you are super strong from having to clip from crimps. Raise your difficulty much quicker than the rest of us who are doing it the easy way.

Ralph Swansen · · Boulder CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 761

^^^^ Exactly. Do you want to practice falling? Nut up and get on some clean 5.10's

sherb · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 60
James Hicks wrote: Most people are taller than you, which means most routes are bolted accordingly. But also, plenty of short climbers do just fine and don't blow clips because they are short. You just have to plan accordingly and set yourself up for the clip. Try climbing until your are wast level or so with the bolt. If there is a good clipping stance that usually means that there is a decent hold somewhere near the clip, especially of 5.8 and below. If you clip from near your waist you don't have much more, if any, rope out than you would if you are stretching to make the clip from below the bolt. Blowing a clip can be dangerous. Taking falls is fine, but I wouldn't make a habit out of blowing clips. I feel like it introduces a lot more variables to what can happen than just a standard lead fall. No real science behind that though, just a personal feeling.
Thanks for verifying that blown clip falls are more unpredictable. As for climbing until waist level with the bolt, but it does not help much in the situation I am referring, of needing to enter a thin move that also coincides with a bad fall (e.g. the last clipped bolt is under a ledge or two while pulling over a lip) due to the inabilty to reach the bolt from a safe stance. Also I'm thinking waist clipping does not help when the bolt is laterally distant from the route. But I will keep this in the back of my mind, and perhaps this suggestion will help on at least one instance.

J. Broussard wrote: Props for getting your lead on. Maybe you should try trad climbing since sport climbing is clearly VERY dangerous for you.
I have often thought that one advantage of trad is, because it often follows a crack, there is the advantage of fewer height dependent holds and protecton points. But it sure would be nice to sport climb safely as well. It provides variety, speed, ease (of gear), and ability to build strength.

J. Albers wrote: Sigh. Actually Christine has a pretty valid point, though I think it tends to be a problem throughout CO (and beyond) from my experience (Devil's Head for example has this problem all over the place). Unfortunately I think that most bolters don't think too hard about this kind of thing. I'm nearly 6 feet tall and I can't tell you the number of times that I have clipped a bolt in the Boulder area thinking to myself "man, my shorter partners would be unhappy right here." Telling someone to climb until the bolt is at their waist when that means they have to tweak on a hold mid-crux while the rest of us taller people can get a resting clip is bogus, totally unnecessary hogwash. I would suggest to those folks that are bolting out there to take the advice of the gentleman that taught me to put routes up. He is a reasonably tall guy (over 6 foot) and he has a simple rule for choosing bolt placements. If you (the tall bolter) can reach the bolt with your elbow, then its all good. Otherwise, lower your placement. This is almost always an easy rule to follow and it means that even a 4'10" person will be able to clip the bolt from the good stance. Unfortunately I can't offer Christine much advice other than the following. Make yourself what's called a 'stiffy'. Basically you take a standard one-foot draw and tape the holy sh*t out of it (maybe even add something stiff inside the tape...just make sure it won't damage the draw or interfere with the biners on either end). What you are trying to accomplish is the ability to hold onto the bottom biner of the draw and hold the draw straight up without it flopping over. Essentially what you are aiming for is a draw that is stiff enough that you can put the draw on the bolt without actually being able to reach the bolt. While this won't solve all of your problems, it will very often get you that extra foot of reach that you need in order to be able to put the draw on the bolt and clip from the good stance. Make sense?
1) Thank you, your empathy and advice made me feel better. Even validated, instead of being told I'm a crappy climber. Already I feel like a failure when backing off a route. I'm impressed the thought crossed your mind of how your shorter parters would feel about a certain move, being tall yourself.

2) Whoever your mentor was, I thank him for his conscientious bolting (as well as yours), and the wisdom he passed on. Part of the reason I posted is so route setters/bolters are aware that there are shorter people who climb. I don't mean to insist that every bolt should be made to fit shorties instead of tall, but in the event of a sketchy situation, if it would not detrimental to taller climbers, it would be nice to prevent a nasty fall for more people.

3) A good lengthy stiffy would help a lot! I think it would solve some of my problems.

J. Albers wrote: James man, I think you totally missed the point of my post. I clip all the time from my waist. Sh*t, sometimes I climb through cruxes and clip at my ankles. And when I do so, it is always in a safe manner (nearly always anyway!!) Those are not the circumstances that I was referring to. Moreover it also doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of ill bolted routes out there. Perhaps you should try and put yourself in the shoes of a shorter person the next twenty times you climb outside and then comment. Empathy man, find some.
ROFL! Also I would like James to climb in my shoes.

Leo Paik wrote:Christiney, another thing beyond the stiffened "extendo draw" that other shorter partners use that might help would be to ask your partner to lead first, leave 12-24" quickdraws hanging, and then you could "pink point" the route. Then, if it's an issue of extended fall to the next bolt, you might swap out for a shorter quickdraw once high enough. Sure, it isn't quite as nice, but you might not hit your head as much.
True, sometimes I unsteadily stretch out to my max to get the quickdraw on the bolt, but putting the rope in the bottom biner is much easier, especially with a long dogbone. Since I have actually never climbed with anyone shorter than me, I could probably have any partner apply all the quickdraws for me. But, yeah, not as fun, sometimes I want to climb the route first. I'll just give them the ledgy ones.

Ray Lovestead wrote:I'm on Christiney's side on this one. I'm only 5'8" and I've run across a number of clips that have required quite a stretch to reach. I feel for yah. But, other than offering sympathy, there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it. Areas like Boulder Canyon are so totally bolted out. There won't be any American with Disabilities Acts (no offense on your height) for rock climbing in the near future.
Maybe Boulder Canyon is bolted out, but there are other places being developed or rebolted. Actually, the stiffy advice is helpful, and the sympathy is much appreciated!

I'd give a kidney to be 5'8". Yet I feel pretty grateful to be relatively normal, my friend has a genetic disorder where she was born without forearms, her hands are attached to her elbows. Poor girl, she could never climb! She even has to lean in and bend her whole body over to reach something on a table. What a shame the ADA refuses to get involved lol.

rob.calm wrote: Here's a picture of the Viagra draw that's been mentioned. How to make one. Buy two popsicles. Eat them, save the sticks and wash them. Let the sticks dry. Buy a Petzl quick draw. Use duct tape, wrapping the sticks on the side of the draw and fixing the carabiner on the clipping end firmly to the draw. Use a locking carabiner for the rope end of the draw as the stiffness of the draw can create twisting forces. Second suggestion. Sometimes it's helpful to use a full length trad draw when you clip the bolt because then the rope clipping carabiner is closer to you and easier to clip. This can be followed up by making a second clip using a short draw. Third suggestion. Sometimes it safer to use two-rope technique. I like this if missing the clip on the 2nd bolt could result in a ground fall. You've clipped, say, the blue rope into the first bolt. Then use the red rope to make the clip on the second bolt. That way if you miss the clip, the fall will be shorter. RobertusPunctumPacificus
a) Great idea - I am going to eat some popsicles! Thanks for the tip on using the locking carabiner for the rope end, I wouldn't have thought about that, but it makes sense.

b) I may use this suggestion when someone puts the quickdraws on the route for me, the big problem is getting the quickdraw onto the bolt.

c) I like this! That way not all that slack is out for clipping. I was the belayer of a near decking, where the climber was about to clip the second bolt when he fell. He fell and came to a stop with his harness 1" off the ground, his shoulders and head brushing the ground. Luckily he was horizontal, if he was upside down he would have drilled into the ground with his helmet-less head. Really scared me!

Cindy wrote:As someone who is 5' tall I highly suggest having one or two "stiff" quickdraws on your rack. Mine are about 6" long. A good friend of mine who is 4'10" used to use an even longer stiffy. Reachy clips can be quite the norm at our height and many times these draws will allow the crux of the climb to be the climbing instead of the clipping. :) And I agree, sometimes the bolts could be placed at least a smidge lower with some forethought, but overall it is what it is and the stiffies can be very helpful.
Exactly, the ability to climb a route should not be inhibited by the ability to protect ourselves. Stiffies it is.
Also, I need to get in contact with your 4'10" friend!
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

If 5.8 is where you're comfortable climbing yet you feel like you're not falling enough, start climbing 9s. If you're still not falling, try some 10s. Intentionally falling in the terrain you generally find on 5.8 and easier climbs is probably a bad idea anyway.

And as a 5'3" climber with a -3 ape, yes sport climbs bolted by tall folks are usually frustrating and sometimes unnerving. I prefer trad.

Laila J · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 0

Christiney,

thanks for drawing attention to this, and thanks to everyone else for the insight... Weird as they might look I think I'll add a stiff draw to my rack.

I'm a bit taller than you (5'4") but it's nice to know that this is a real concern for others. Sometimes I feel like I'm just crazy or that my head is getting the better of me when I get into that situation where a clip that was clearly intended to be reached from the safe stance is out of my reach.

While usually there is a way to mitigate the danger, sometimes the reality we're facing is an UNNECESSARY dangerous fall onto a ledge off of a hard and thin move. It certainly feels like it ups the challenge, if not the grade, of the climb in that situation. Sometimes it's the nature of the rock or the route that necessitates the bolt placement, but a lot of times they could easily be a few inches lower without any ill effect.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

Chicken Delight and Rubber Chicken at the Sport Park are pretty reasonable 10s for falling practice, fairly steep and clean.

Edit- oops, just re-read the OP. I doubt there are any 8s that fit the bill very well. Maybe bolt to bolt on the harder routes, then practice your falls?

Kelly P · · The Bubble, CO · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 10

The chicken wall will feel like slab climbing and slab falling to someone climbing at the level and lower. They are not steep. The movement and the feeling on them is very much that of a slab(an easy one, but a slab nonetheless).

As for Christeny...at 5'3" I have the same issue occasionally. I currently deal with it in one of two ways....one, I climb through the crux and then clip...as blowing the clip is worse then taking a fall to the next bolt. OR if this is unsafe as you suggest(I have climbed a ton in BoCan and have never run into this but I digress...) I ask my husband to put the draws up and put longer runners where needed. My projects are usually his warmups anyway so it works out...

Good luck and stay safe!!!

sherb · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 60
Kelly P wrote:As for Christeny...at 5'3" I have the same issue occasionally. I currently deal with it in one of two ways....one, I climb through the crux and then clip...as blowing the clip is worse then taking a fall to the next bolt. OR if this is unsafe as you suggest(I have climbed a ton in BoCan and have never run into this but I digress...) I ask my husband to put the draws up and put longer runners where needed. My projects are usually his warmups anyway so it works out... Good luck and stay safe!!!
The first instance I ran into this is "Splitting Hares" in the Bowling Alley - at 5'3" you may or may not be able to reach that bolt on the bald face from the last ledge (at 5" shorter, I definitely can't), but upon entering the bald face without clipping it it's a 2 ledge bounce whether the clip is blown or not, since the bolt is under one or both ledges (this was over a year ago, so I forget the bolt placement, but with the amount of rope above the upper ledge, it would still be a 2 ledge hit). Check it out, pretend you can't reach the bolt from the ledge, and let me know if you don't agree.
Kelly P · · The Bubble, CO · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 10

I have climbed that route many times so I know exactly what you are talking about :) So the only way around this is to get stronger unfortunately. Once that move to the bolt becomes easy it won't be such a worry. Once you know where to go, they are all jugs around the bolt. Although the move after that to the anchors is a bit of a throw as well(although also to jugs) . I had the same feeling the first time I did that route as well and admit I stood on that ledge for a hot minute gathering my nerve. Once you do it, the moves are quite easy and you won't feel so exposed. Or have someone hang a long draw there before you...or practice it on toprope first. Is this route close to your limit?

sherb · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 60

It's not that I couldn't do the moves as I finished the route. Thus "getting stronger" is not the solution for this problem of a potential bad fall. Theoretically, bolts should be placed on a sport route so climbers can fall without serious injury.

You might have a different route in mind as there are no jugs on the headwall. The comments for the route verifies what I remember.

Nicholas Patterson · · Sheridan, WY · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 55

it's good to be mindful of the consequences and potential results of unsuccessful movement on any route, but there are times for people of all heights when the only pro you have, is your mind.

alpine to boulders, gym to big wall...there are moments when a fall can be undesirable no matter your size. steel your mind, weigh the risk, make a choice, and execute.

we can't change height, we can't move bolts while on route, WE are the variable. make a choice and be precise in your actions.

climb with your spirit.

as for the original post; climb harder routes.

James Hicks · · Fruita, CO · Joined May 2012 · Points: 131
nicholas patterson wrote:it's good to be mindful of the consequences and potential results of unsuccessful movement on any route, but there are times for people of all heights when the only pro you have, is your mind. alpine to boulders, gym to big wall...there are moments when a fall can be undesirable no matter your size. steel your mind, weigh the risk, make a choice, and execute. we can't change height, we can't move bolts while on route, WE are the variable. make a choice and be precise in your actions. climb with your spirit. as for the original post; climb harder routes.
Well said...

I was called insensitive earlier this thread because I said that the OP might have to adjust their clipping habits a bit. There are plenty of routes, whether you be tall or short, where there is ledge fall potential from clipping stances. It is not an issue purely owned by those who are shorter than average. You weigh the risk and make a decision.

But is a lot easier to say that its the route setters fault then it is to say that maybe I just need to get stronger. And if this is truly that big of an issue for some folks, then those folks can go about bolting their own routes using the spacing they think is appropriate, or just go trad climbing.

To be honest, BC is generally one of the most well (overly) bolted sport climbing areas I have climbed at. If you can't deal with those routes you better stay away from some of the more old school "sport" areas.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

it isn't really the number of bolts placed that define if a route is well bolted or not. for example, i climbed a new easy route last weekend that had a ton of bolts, but the bolting was terrible. i also climbed a route that day that was 4 number grades harder, had half the bolts, and the bolting was pretty good. i was more worried on the easy route.

the route she mentions, splitting hares, is a great example of crappy bolting. i always think it's pretty funny when guys puff out their chest and say "well little lady, you just gotta climb harder...". it would be interesting to see if they are so bold when they are in the same boat....

James Hicks · · Fruita, CO · Joined May 2012 · Points: 131
slim wrote:it isn't really the number of bolts placed that define if a route is well bolted or not. for example, i climbed a new easy route last weekend that had a ton of bolts, but the bolting was terrible. i also climbed a route that day that was 4 number grades harder, had half the bolts, and the bolting was pretty good. i was more worried on the easy route. the route she mentions, splitting hares, is a great example of crappy bolting. i always think it's pretty funny when guys puff out their chest and say "well little lady, you just gotta climb harder...". it would be interesting to see if they are so bold when they are in the same boat....
HA! Chest puffing...I never said I was a bad ass, because I am not. I get scared most of the time when I climb. And you are right, there is crappy bolting on a lot of routes. And I have been scared on easy, yet horribly, bolted routes. And I have climbed hard (for me) routes with 4 bolts and ground fall potential at most of the stances but felt super comfortable.

This route in question sounds like its simply just a poorly bolted route whether you be 6'6" or 5'0".
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
James Hicks wrote: .... To be honest, BC is generally one of the most well (overly) bolted sport climbing areas I have climbed at. If you can't deal with those routes you better stay away from some of the more old school "sport" areas.
i think this is what i kinda took exception to, nothing personal. the two scenarios are pretty different - climbing through difficult terrain with clean fall potential above your bolt, and climbing through awkard insecure terrain to an awkward clip with ledge fall potential.
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
James Hicks wrote: HA! Chest puffing...I never said I was a bad ass, because I am not. I get scared most of the time when I climb. And you are right, there is crappy bolting on a lot of routes. And I have been scared on easy, yet horribly, bolted routes. And I have climbed hard (for me) routes with 4 bolts and ground fall potential at most of the stances but felt super comfortable. This route in question sounds like its simply just a poorly bolted route whether you be 6'6" or 5'0".
James, you are getting nailed on not just for being insensitive, though you are achieving that too. Part of what I am bagging on you for is making chest puffer statements like this:

James Hicks wrote: To be honest, BC is generally one of the most well (overly) bolted sport climbing areas I have climbed at. If you can't deal with those routes you better stay away from some of the more old school "sport" areas.
You are missing the point and several of us keep trying to point this out to you but you keep thinking its purely about being insensitive. You don't need to lecture me or several of the other posters on this thread about old school bolting because believe it or not, many of us have spent plenty of time climbing run out stuff. Sh*t, I rarely have to worry about any of the bolting problems that the OP and others are expressing concern about because by the time you hit my onsight limit, bolters tend to bolt pretty carefully (go figure...they're not lazy or thoughtless on stuff they might fall on). However you don't hear me telling those that climb less hard to "deal with it". And that is exactly what you are doing.

Anyway, I guess I could try and craft another couple of sentences trying to further clarify my perspective, but just read Slim's recent posts because he is more or less hitting the nail on the head. In closing, you come across as speaking from a pretty high horse, so perhaps you should give that some thought.
Rob Gordon · · Hollywood, CA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 115

#whitepeopleproblems

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Rob Gordon wrote:#whitepeopleproblems
Rob, it's not a white people problem, it's a climber problem.
That's nearly the only kind that really matters.
Gotta have some perspective here.
Kelly P · · The Bubble, CO · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 10

Splitting Hares, also has a fall into the tree potential as well. Honestly, it isn't the greatest route anyway. However, it is a convenient warmup for the area. It doesn't matter the grade, or your ability for that matter, you always have to deal with some consequences. Sinopia for example(also in BC, you have to make the move off the ledge to get the draw in. Once it is in, most people can reach it from the ledge, but if you blow the move to get the draw in you are taking a shitty fall off a ledge and down a face. That being said, if it was placed lower, it wouldn't protect the harder moves above it. Or Freefall, also in Boulder Canyon, I can't, at my height, get the draw in the bolt that protects the crux. I have two options, skip it, or have someone put the draws up for me. However, skipping it does not make the route any less safe, so it is less of an issue then what you describe. There are always pros and cons to climbing, and life. Some routes aren't worth it, especially considering there are 1500+ routes in Boulder Canyon alone. Do what feels safe for you, and also realise that at your height, you are an outlier. Not being rude, but to bolt something for that one or two people of your stature would make it super awkward for the general population. I am sure as a short person you find ways to get around other things meant for those of average height(sun visors, kitchen cabinets, etc) this is no different.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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