Trad pack?

I have used the Axis 33 from BD, and its greatest weakness is that the pack material is not up for sustained abrasion, like a good crag pack should be. After sending one off for repair (which BD just replaced, because they're awesome like that), I just picked up a haulbag and went with that. BD designs are pretty neat, but they attach a lot of void-warranty-if-removed crap that is awfully specialized and not terribly practical. To whit: the helmet retention system and the rope retention system don't work well in tandem, and and both completely preclude any access to the top compartment. I like the Axis for ice climbing, ski mountaineering, and sport cragging, but I won't put cams in it, or any other BD pack.

As far as needing a 52L pack, because you're hauling 2-3 boat anchors in addition to what most rational people call a standard rack, I used to climb at Vedauwoo, almost daily, and unless the wide stuff was for sure on the menu that day (and unprotectable without the 5, the 6, both big bros, the #7 tricam...), the big gear never left the truck. My standard rack went up to an old style 4 camalot, and I still only needed a 40L pack, carrying doubles from tips to fists.
You may lose some flexibility in a strictly cragging setting, but I think you'll find that packing your pack to reflect your goals will allow you to move much faster, gaining you a wholly other form of flexibility. Take what you need, not everything you have.

Brian,

That's not really been my experience. I actually cut the red rope holder thing off because the side straps are enough. It is tough getting in with the rope and helmet on but I usually only find myself needing to get in when I start climbing so those things are coming off anyways. As far as durability I've been pretty impressed. It's in it's second season and everything still works. Don't know it will make it another season but it still lasted longer than my previous Gregory pack. Hauled it up Epinephrine and some other stuff, zippers still work. You must be even rougher on packs than me :)

The Misty Mountain gorge and traverse packs are nice trad / cragging packs that can also do longer approaches. The full zip on the front is convenient and you can also just dump stuff in top-loader style. No bells and whistles and dangly bits to get hung up in stuff. Beefy construction as well. Worth a look (plus it's a great small company that does all their production here in NC).

mistymountain.com/recreatio…

I tore holes in the side material from walking past Vedauwoo granite, and I tore a hole in the padded bottom material while scrambling down that same Vedauwoo granite. Maybe they've changed materials, but both black Axises that I've owned had really thin material, and I had to change the way I used the pack or else see it destroyed.
Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of the rope and helmet retention system, its just that I have never been able to find a work around with the side straps. I tend to throw my keys in that top pouch, making the problem pretty irritating right at the very beginning and very end of a trip, not to mention when I need to stow my headlamp at daylight, when the approach doesn't end for another 45 minutes.

TheIceManCometh wrote:jmeizis wrote: With what? Just the gear you listed? You gotta push harder. Make it fit! [Chad answers] double set of stoppers tricams white through blue with doubles in white, black and pink 16 extendable draws with should length slings two 48" slings [reply] yeah, you're rack is huge. Lose all the tri-cams. And the 2nd set of stoppers. And the triples in the cams. 10 draws max. Read Extreme Alpinism and then apply that philosophy to trad climbing.

Actually for where I climb in northern MN tricams and smallish (4-8) stoppers are a necessity. Edit to add: For the routes I climb and the pro I prefer

As for the larger number of draws . . . . again in this area you can have potential to hit intermediate outcropings so placing five to eight pieces in the first 30 feet are pretty common with most of trad climbs around 80 to 130 feet. Edit to add: Obviously this is my personal preference for the routes I lead, run it out as much as you want.

The triples in some cam sizes, well that's just me but I tend to place those sizes a lot and on many leads have placed every single one of those triples.

It all depends on the route of course. :)

jmeizis wrote: Ok, your rack is HUGE. I'm going to try and add a few years to the life of your spine but unless you're trying to send El Cap in one pitch you could probably stand to lose a good deal of stuff :) Stoppers, unless you really like placing them there isn't much reason to bring two sets as well as all those tricams as well as a huge rack of cams.

See my post above about the climbing by me, tricams and stoppers are pretty much required if you want to fall on your gear and live.

jmeizis wrote: I lead parties of 4 up 10 pitch routes with a double rack of cams .3-3. That's not to say you should be that minimalist but you could certainly stand to lose at least a set of nuts, some of the tricams and everything above a #3 or #4 unless you know the climb requires it. That #6 alone takes up like 10L of pack space. If it were me I'd choose between the tricams and the stoppers and only take one set.

Many of the climbs here are wide cracks. See my post above. Oh and I only bring the #6 unless I know I'll need it, that things is a beast!

jmeizis wrote:For cragging, even multipitch the ten essentials are essentially a waste in my opinion. My cellphone pretty much takes care of the guidebook, camera, emergency light, map and compass. In the very unlikely chance I need those things I'm willing to put all my faith in the one electronic device.

I don't have a cell phone. Also cell phone coverage where I climb is spotty as shit. I respectfully disagree about carrying some of the ten essentials. I sure don't carry all ten but I do carry a few.

jmeizis wrote: Because more often than not I won't need it. If you really needed to MacGuyver it you could also use your phone battery to start a fire. Not exactly safe. A knife can be substituted with a good rock. Emergency shelters are great if you like to be miserable. Probably better to just stumble back to the car in the dark though. Dump everything out of your first aid kit except some band aids and pain killers. If it's really bad what you need want be in your FA kit. If it's so bad that you could carry it you're probably bailing to go to the hospital and can either wait or improvise. A WFR is worth more than a first aid kit in my opinion. Hope your toiletries are travel size! Be sure to clean out your pack every once and a while. You won't need bug spray in Vegas or might not need sunscreen in the Cascades.

My 'kit' that includes: first aid, essentials, and toiletries weighs 10.5 oz. I'm also a diabetic so that dictates some of what I need to carry.

jmeizis wrote: In regards to rain jackets and puffies. Maybe I just am a little more stoic when it comes to that sort of thing but the only time I bring a rain jacket or puffy is on backcountry climbs with approaches that are more than an hour or so, even then I sometimes do without (still have yet to regret it, knock on wood). If it's really raining that bad you'll bail and be back at the car quickly. If you look at the weather you have a general idea of whether you actually need a puffy or not.

I only bring a puffy or rain jacket when the weather report calls for it. Then again I do climb next to Lake Superior and it's plays merrily with the weather.

Oh and when I do bring them my puffy weighs 12.5 oz and my rain jacket is 4.5 oz.

jmeizis wrote: So by now you've probably dropped twenty pounds out of your pack.

No if I took your advice I've have cut just shy of 6 pounds.

jmeizis wrote: Now if you split stuff with your partner you could probably just go packless! Now slim down the diameter of your rope, get superlight carabiners, some nice approach sandals. There is a reason I can't count the number of people I have passed but could count the number of people who've passed me on one hand. I'm leaving for a week of alpine climbing in the Cascades. Everything is in a 45L pack with only a few things strapped on the outside (rope, ice ax and tool, picket, rope). LIGHT IS RIGHT!!!

Well I am an UL backpacker so I get it. There are just some things I can't get lighter on.

I like my 10.2mm rope, for a guy my size it's smart.
I use UL wiregates and dynema slings for my 'draws'

My climbing pack base weight (no food or water) comes in at 32 pounds. Not light weight by any means but lightish, kind of sort of. :P

Oh and just for reference my base weight for three season backpacking is 8 pounds 14 oz. ;)

Chad, I must take issue with your use of necessity for certain gear when climbing in MN. I have been climbing in MN since '79 and have never carried tricams. Just too much fiddling around for me. That's more slings than I carry also. As previously mentioned, that's a pretty good sized rack. Carry as much gear as you feel comfortable with but please don't lead others to believe they must carry this much gear.

JoeCrawford wrote:I have the 30l Hauly, but am going to get a 45L once this one blows out. I've been abusing it for 4 years and the only thing wrong with it is a blown out zipper in the inside pouch. It is an awesome pack, and I've been able to carry a 60m 9.4, single rack, harness, shoes, lunch, a 1L nalgene and small puffy in it regularly. But that 45L looks a lot easier to just throw stuff in and go. cilogear.com/45lhauly.html

+1 on cilogear

A tad expensive but a great combination of lightweight, smart design, and bomber construction. Switched 2 years ago and won't go back.

Z.Yakush wrote:CCW all the way. Ozone would be the way to go. I think it is around 40liters (at least mine is), but hey, you'll carry less stuff that way. I don't see why you should be able to put what you have on your list in one. Absolutely indestructible.

+1111 for CCW, I have 2 packs. Had the Chernobyl since 2009. and it's still in phenomenal condition (I've ruined 4 other packs during that time). Just picked up the Ozone to be my everyday rock and alpine pack.

Definitely Not 40L though...much closer to a tight 30L

I use a Marmot Drakkon 45 for cragging. It would probably work for some camping as well. It's a standard toploader layout with removable "brain" and decent hip belt, but it also zips down the middle with two nylon "handles" on the inside so it acts like a duffel as well. It has loops for ice tools as well as a hydration bladder pocket. So far it's been pretty good to me and is super comfortable on longer approaches. YMMV.

+1 on Cilogear though, bomber stuff and American made.

"+1111 for CCW, I have 2 packs. Had the Chernobyl since 2009. and it's still in phenomenal condition (I've ruined 4 other packs during that time). Just picked up the Ozone to be my everyday rock and alpine pack."

I just ordered my 3rd last week for a trip in the planning. I got a pretty much stripped chaos leaving only axe loops side compression straps and replaced crampon bag for straps.
Ya pretty much can't go wrong with CCW packs.

Peter L Scott wrote:Chad, I must take issue with your use of necessity for certain gear when climbing in MN. I have been climbing in MN since '79 and have never carried tricams. Just too much fiddling around for me. That's more slings than I carry also. As previously mentioned, that's a pretty good sized rack. Carry as much gear as you feel comfortable with but please don't lead others to believe they must carry this much gear.

I did not intend for my post to be a gear guide to lead climbing in northern MN. It was my personal preference and experiences.

I never said you needed to carry a certain amount of gear, just that I tend to place cams of a certain times often on the same route, thus my carrying doubles or tripples of a size, sometimes.

I never said I carry that much gear on a climb, I can bring up to that much gear to climbs depending on the area, the route(s) I'd lead, and the group I'm with.

The amount of pro you like to place in the first 30 feet or so is personal preference. For the number of draws I have no idea the routes you lead in northern MN but I seem to climb wandering routes so a good deal of shoulder length slings seems to good for me.

As for the tricams, well I've never found them fiddly and I seem to always place them on leads around here. Again I have no idea what routes you climb up here so you may not need them.

Then again it's all personal preference and depends on the route. Just so there is no ill feelings I've edited the post you have issue with just to make clear that it is my personal preference.

You're right Chad, it is definitely just personal preference to carry as much as you do. No one else does it because they just prefer not to! It doesn't have anything to do with that being way too much stuff to reasonably carry cragging. No one is trying to force you to change your cragging checklist, it is just a lot more fun to take a more reasonable rack. It's lighter, easier to pack, and takes up less space on your harness. The advice you're getting might be unsolicited, but it's excellent. That being said, you're gonna do what you're gonna do!

Alexander Blum wrote:You're right Chad, it is definitely just personal preference to carry as much as you do. No one else does it because they just prefer not to! It doesn't have anything to do with that being way too much stuff to reasonably carry cragging. No one is trying to force you to change your cragging checklist, it is just a lot more fun to take a more reasonable rack. It's lighter, easier to pack, and takes up less space on your harness. The advice you're getting might be unsolicited, but it's excellent. That being said, you're gonna do what you're gonna do!

I think there is a bit of confusion here between what I may bring to a climb and what I lead with.

Lead rack:
TF cams from.5 through 3 with a couple doubles, typically a TF 1.5 or 2.0
Set of stoppers
couple of pink tricams
between 8 and 16 'draws' depending on the route
cord
nut tool
48" sling
extra locker
belay device
energy gel and insulin (diabetic)

Pack:
Whats above plus
food and water
first aid
a few essentials
basic toiletries, ie sunscreen, bug dope
60m rope
helmet
diabetic supplies

rain jacket if weather calls for it
puffy jacket if weather calls for it
select cams in the 4 through 6 range if the route calls for it
second set of nuts and a few more tricams if we need to create an anchor to rappel down to climbs base and lead out
a little point and shoot camera if I think of it

It's not that I carry all that gear on every route or trip, it's just that I like to have a pack that can carry most of that gear if I where to say go climb a wide crack in October at Shovel Point where I'll need to rap to the start.