I wouldn't be that stupid

John Wilder wrote: That said, the new belay method (where your brake hand stays on the rope.

I had to parse this quote out. New method? Why would you ever take your hand off of the brake strand? On any belay device? Is this really new thinking?

thebmc.co.uk/gri-gri-unmask…

Myth: The grigri will always lock of its own accord in the event of a fall, providing a failsafe anchor.

Reality check: If there is no initial shock loading or sudden pull on the rope, the device may not lock AT ALL!

the solution is easy ... keep a hand on the brake at all times

be VERY careful when feeding out slack while pressing the cam ... even with the new method your brake hand holds the rope lightly when feeding (otherwise you couldnt feed) via the cam press

ive seen people nearly deck because their belayer was feeding out slack while the fell ... the reaction time you have is miniscule ... those fingers dont do anything unless the thumb comes off the cam instantly and the brake hand pulls down, just like using an ATC

NEVER keep the thumb on the cam when not feeding out slack, and only press it LIGHTLY then

for the OP ... if injuries are preventing you from using the proper technique because of needing to use the other hand ... consider the mammut smart which is fully ambidextrous

wankel7 wrote: I had to parse this quote out. New method? Why would you ever take your hand off of the brake strand? On any belay device? Is this really new thinking?

The original instructions on the Grigri did not have you keep a hand on the brake strand. They have since revised their instructions. There are videos of both methods, and at one time both methods were on the Petzl website. Im not sure if they even have the "old" method on there now.

A Grigri is a belay device, YOU are the belayer...

APBT1976 wrote:I decked being belayed with a Cinch about 7 weeks ago. Who knows what happened as I was climbing not belaying. My belayer was a long time trusted partner so I did no even think to question he was at fault. This is interesting info for me as I have never belayed with a GriGri or a Cinch. I have always just used an ATC so it hard for me to even consider any kind of operator error with no first hand experience with the auto locking devices. Glad everyone is ok. I fractured my calcaneus but it coulda been so much worse. I feel very very lucky in a what the fuck kinda way...

the disadvantage of the cinch is that there is no bend in the rope ... so if the cam fails the belayer cant hold on like an ATC and the climber decks

of course with a gri gri, even with a bend, unless the belayer has a SOLID brake hand ... and most grigri belayers i see just hold on lightly ... the rope can zip through and develop enough momentum that by the time you grab it you get burned hands and/or a decked climber

note that the smart has the same issue if you leave the lever open when feeding the rope and the climber falls ... the brake hand must immediately come down and hold the rope tight ...

there have been drops around here on the smart due to poor training and technique ... people holding the lever open all the time, grabbing the climber side hard, and/or not holding the brake hand FIRMLY

the most dangerous time with most of these devices is when feeding out slack, never leave the cam or lever open unless actually feeding ... many folks keep their thumb on the cam or push up the lever all the time

its is CRITICAL to practice catching falls from the top (backed up) in the middle of feeding out slack in order to train the reaction should that happen ... you could be using the device for years and not have someone fall when feeding out, till that one day it happens

the other thing is that ALL climbers should be solid on a tube style device before transitioning to an assisted locking one ...

proper brake hand control is an absolute with any of these devices ... because if the camming action fails, thats the ONLY thing keeping your climber from decking ...

many folks i see who learn or belay exclusively with an assisted locking device have shiet for SOLID brake hand control

for about a year i used the alpine smart exclusively ... after that time i was quite surprised at how much my brake hand technique had deteriorated ... you start depending on the assisted locking too much only keeping a light hand on the brake ... however as the OPs instance shows this may not be enough to stop an actual fall should the camming action fail

so now i spend some time belaying with either a munter or tube as well to maintain the skills at a proper level

besides that brake hand control is absolutely critical when rapping if you arent using a prussic all the time ... but thats another thread

I wonder if people put this level of scrutiny into their driving habits? (I doubt it...) While I'm not saying that we shouldn't scrutinize our belay technique and expect perfection from our belayers, we're honestly exposing ourselves and others to far greater levels of risk by being imperfect drivers than we are by being imperfect belayers.

As someone pointed out, Petzl's first instructional video showed belayers releasing the hot side of the rope to feed slack. But that doesn't matter because I knew better.

At no point have I suggested anything other than my having total responsibility for this near miss. Let's call a second "spade a spade". If you're on this thread to tell me and the world I was belaying improperly you're too late, I've already done that. What you really need to do is try to figure out why I would put my ass on here knowing it was going to get chewed off.

Someone wanted to know where my hands were. Once the rope was pulled out from between my left thumb and first two finger I had no hand on the rope. That's why I have burns on my hands from trying to grab and stop a rope that was already running through the grigri.

By the way, I talked to Paul this morning. He also believes that he was coming down at a fast but steady speed, like there was still friction in the system.

Brad

The Alpine Up (and Click Up) are the only assisted locking devices I know of which do not require or encourage you to physically hold the device in a non-braking position to pump out slack for clipping. There is no alternate brake hand position other than the normal correct one you'd use for an ATC, and nothing extra required of the brake hand other than grasping the rope.

As with an ATC, you do have to drop your brake hand below the device to inaugurate braking, so it is possible to screw up and lose control even with the UP, although it seems that the level of incompetence or inattention demanded for that mistake is higher than for other gadgets.

I was dropped about 50 feet on a cinch by my buddy who is a very experienced climber (we still climb together). I flipped upside down, knocked myself out and ended up with a shitload of scrapes and bruises.

My mother dropped my dad about 60 feet with a grigri when I was a kid. We didnt go rock climbing after that.

I really hate those things. You can talk shit and say "Well just dont be an idiot and pay attention!" this may be your opinion until you almost get killed by one.

It is so easy to become complacent with the auto lock. I only find them acceptable for ice climbing because of ice fall and the fact that generally you are much more attentive when belaying ice (but still).

I realize that there are just as many horror stories about belayers getting smashed by rock fall with an ATC and their partner suffering. Rock climbing is dangerous! Yaaaaaaaay!

csproul wrote: The original instructions on the Grigri did not have you keep a hand on the brake strand. They have since revised their instructions. There are videos of both methods, and at one time both methods were on the Petzl website. Im not sure if they even have the "old" method on there now.

You still had to manage the brake side, it wasn't that you just let it go altogether. I never had a problem with catching using the 'old' method. Granted, I'm vigilant as hell about controlling the brake strand/side.

rgold wrote: As with an ATC, you do have to drop your brake hand below the device to inaugurate braking, so it is possible to screw up and lose control even with the UP, although it seems that the level of incompetence or inattention demanded for that mistake is higher than for other gadgets.

I know a lot of people that a grigri is all they use, and have never had problems. I have used them plenty and never had a problem, still prefer an ATC because the grigri is a gadget. Found that the more moving parts something has, the higher the chance of failure. It also breeds complacency. We have a saying in the Fire service, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. Often times simple is better. Thanks for posting your experience, reminds us all that we are all human, and no one is above a mistake.

Buff Johnson wrote: You still had to manage the brake side, it wasn't that you just let it go altogether. I never had a problem with catching using the 'old' method. Granted, I'm vigilant as hell about controlling the brake strand/side.

It's been a long time since I saw the old video and I can't seem to find it, but I thought that the "old" method had you take your brake hand completely off the rope while you held the cam open and pulled rope out with your left hand. I could be wrong, since I never used that method and I haven't seen the video in a while. In any case, it used to (unfortunately) be fairly common for people to completely remove their brake hand to feed slack.

csproul wrote: It's been a long time since I saw the old video and I can't seem to find it, but I thought that the "old" method had you take your brake hand completely off the rope while you held the cam open and pulled rope out with your left hand. I could be wrong, since I never used that method and I haven't seen the video in a while. In any case, it used to (unfortunately) be fairly common for people to completely remove their brake hand to feed slack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxqMTwx4LZM

the problem is that with thicker, stiffer, fuzzier, older ropes ... it can be quite hard to feed slack even normally using the "regular" method

so many people keep using the "quick feed" method not just when feeding clips, but for normal belaying ... and those habits stay with em even with skinnier, slicker ropes as it becomes the default

with the "old" method this means you basically have no more than 2 fingers and a thumb on the brake side holding lightly ... unless you train yourself to grasp the rope solidly with every fall, the muscle reflex may not be enough to stop the rope should the camming action fail

the "new" way is a bit better ... but still those 3 fingers (i dont count the index as its supporting the device, not really on the rope) still may not be enough if someone keeps the thumb on the cam for a tad too long ...

IMO it takes MORE training to use a gri gri/smart properly ... i see people unconsciously keep the cam open all the time ... and they dont even notice it

often when this is pointed out politely ... "dude i know what im doing, the gri gri/smart is AUTOLOCKING"

csproul wrote: It's been a long time since I saw the old video and I can't seem to find it, but I thought that the "old" method had you take your brake hand completely off the rope while you held the cam open and pulled rope out with your left hand. I could be wrong, since I never used that method and I haven't seen the video in a while. In any case, it used to (unfortunately) be fairly common for people to completely remove their brake hand to feed slack.

Although this is a peripheral issue I'm also pretty sure that early video showed the belayer releasing the hot side to feed out rope.

Good stuff Bear......

Hey CS. I see you're from the Sac area. I'm in Chico. A group of us have been doing a lot of development over the last couple of years at The Emeralds and Bowman Lake. Hundreds of new routes. If you're interested in checking it out PM me.

Brad

rockvoyager wrote: Although this is a peripheral issue I'm also pretty sure that early video showed the belayer releasing the hot side to feed out rope. Good stuff Bear...... Hey CS. I see you're from the Sac area. I'm in Chico. A group of us have been doing a lot of development over the last couple of years at The Emeralds and Bowman Lake. Hundreds of new routes. If you're interested in checking it out PM me. Brad

BB's video is the one I was looking for. THe original method does show the brake hand kind of staying on the rope...if you call a couple of fingers a hand on the rope. In reality, most people I have seen using that method didn't keep any fingers on the rope.

BB also brings up a good point. With either method, the default position is not with your hand on the cam and the intention is to immediately let go of the device (with your R hand) when not paying out slack. I think that many people, myself included, have gotten into a bad habit of keeping the R hand resting on the cam/device even when not pulling out slack. I will definitely be more conscious of this in the future.

Rockvoyager, good message. Regardless of the reason, it is a good reminder to review my belay method and remain vigilant that I am using the device correctly. I will definitely PM you. I have been wanting to check out Bowman/Emeralds since moving here. I have seen some pretty cool pictures on Mike Carville's ST thread.

bearbreeder wrote: so many people keep using the "quick feed" method not just when feeding clips, but for normal belaying ... and those habits stay with em even with skinnier, slicker ropes as it becomes the default

Had an employee at an indoor gym call us off a lead wall this winter because the belayer was feeding the rope through normal, he can feed it through fast enough for me to clip without using the "quick feed" method, but he also never took his brake hand off the rope. Had a heated argument with the guy about it, he insisted that "Petzl says this is how you should always do it, and this is how he teaches to do it in his classes." Worse part of the whole deal is that it was my 14 year old son belaying, and he is a great belayer, already figured out soft catches on an ATC, love climbing with him, but the dude really struck a blow to his confidence. The next weekday I emailed the owner of the gym copies of the user manual thing you get when you buy a grigri, where it states in bold letters to not do the "quick feed" all the time, and what had happened. Haven't seen that guy since at that gym.

In the end, guess just wondering how many people he has taught out there doing it, and how many they have shown or taught, and how many they have, and etc. etc. Scary, especially since everyone is a climber anymore, and grigri's are the "in" thing

I would love to see slow motion video of a rope going through an unlocked gri gri at high speed and then of it engaging.

I wonder if a phenomenon similar to what happens in the link below happens with climbing rope at high speeds:

http://www.geek.com/science/watch-this-bead-chain-loop-defy-gravity-and-bend-physics-1560628/

I totally appreciate you sharing your story. We are relatively new climbers, we use a Grigi for belaying. It wasn't until my partner started leading that I ran into the dilemma of trying to feed rope up out of a Grigi. It was frustrating because if I pulled too fast the Grigi would lock up and snag the rope right as my lead was trying to clip.

I never take a hand off of the anchoring part of a Grigi. I have seen them free flow, so with a hand on the lower side it will act very much like an ATC.

I downloaded the Petzl instruction paper for the Grigri and re-read that. Then I watched the Petzl videos. Then I asked some better climbers how they handled it.

In the end I have adopted the Petzl new belay method, using the thumb of the right hand to 'unlock' the Grigi while holding the anchoring side FOLDED OVER the grigi edge, then pulling with my left. With practice my leader and I have it down pretty smooth. I will pull out a little extra just before she clips, then when she yells clipping I will put out the rest. I still lock it up sometimes resulting in a snag for my leader. But we both prefer that to the possibility of not setting the grigri on a fall.

I've made a few mistakes recently that really scared me. I've asked myself, "Hudon, do you really want to die climbing" and I've pledged to myself to be more careful.

FRICTION is key to getting the Grigri cam to engage. If you held the brake side so the rope makes a smooth U shape through the Grigri, then you allow the rope to slide without enough friction to catch. An S shape, formed when the brake strand is pulled down, is ideal.

It sounds like you held the Grigri with your left hand from underneath, and pinched the rope very close to the Grigri. That would do it.

This is similar to when belayers pinch-and-slide using an ATC. When your hands meet above the belay device, you are exposing yourself in the devices weakest position. I assume this technique is a hold over from using a Munter, where the braking position is to pull up toward the climber rather than down.