First Ascents, should the belayer be included even if they don't climb it?

I ask because I have a buddy who never includes the belayer/belayers who give him dozens of catches so he can do FA's. Seems kind of egocentric to me since he isn't soloing the routes and would not do the FA without a belayer. I think that if the route gets done without a rope then the climber alone should be listed.

The guy who does the FA gets all the credit while the people that make it possible by giving up their valuable climbing time so he/she can work their project get none. Belayers, list them or forget them?

Hey Eric,

IMHO, they should at least do the climb even if they dog it. Plenty of climbs have just one person listed. Often routes get cleaned and bolted by one person and then prove too difficult and someone else does the FA. Who should get the credit?

A better question is should some who does the first two pitches of a FA climb be included when the finial product was 4 pitches? Or what about the person who does the FA but with falls?

Did the belayer do an ascent? Not usually. What if I have 20 different people belay me on my futuristic proj before the send? Do I list them all?

If it's single pitch climbing forget them. If it's a real route where someone else is committing, doing the approach, following (even if jugging) pitches, hauling, working logistics, and the descent then they should be (and usually are included).

How many people belayed the Sharma on some proj bro? Why should the guy holding the rope the time he finally sent get credit? Maybe all Sharma needed was the perfect belay to send Jumbo Love, possible but unlikely. Credit where credit is due.

Hopefully your friend buys you a beer for belaying him all day long, or at least does the same in return for you on your project, if not stop wasting your time.

list them unless they didnt climb it, in that case they are pretty much dead weight. if the belayer was 300lbs and eating twinkies the whole time would they deserve mention? I think not, 5.15 belayer maybe but not a climber

I know that when I go out for a day of climbing with someone, even when this includes belaying on the project, the goal for me usually isn't to give up my time in order to belay. I'm climbing on the route or others nearby, too. Belays are traded, not donated (unless it's a rest day and I just want to hang out). Remember, the belayers are (more often than not) partners; it isn't a power relationship with the FAist coercing the belayer. They are two people who want to get out and go climbing. The belayer did not necessarily send the route nor was necessarily heavily involved in its development, and thus shouldn't be automatically given credit.

As an example, Alex Kirkpatrick rapped in, cleaned, and bolted The Broken Blade. He then worked the climb over several trips out to the crag with several partners, but I am sure there were zero instances in which his partners didn't also receive a belay from him as they got on other routes nearby. I went out there for a day and on that day it all came together and he sent it for the FA. I don't claim to be a part of that- I did none of the work other than trading belays during a day at the crag with a good friend; it just happened to include me belaying him on the FA. I also spent several afternoons trading belays with Alex while he worked on what would become Doubt, including the marathon belay the first day we climbed on it. Joel Unema came down for a weekend from Flagstaff and happened to be belaying when he finally sent. Neither Joel nor I claim any part of the FA, because we weren't a part of it beyond going climbing with a friend that, for Joel, included the FA belay.

By contrast, when we FA'd Randy Cook Lives!, we both hiked the drill/bolts/wrench/hammer/brushes up the hill, climbed the route several times each, marking the new bolt placements and figuring out the line. Alex drilled it and removed the old bolts, I gave a lead burn and fell at the top, Alex gave it a burn and sent, then I sent it immediately afterwards. This is an example of what a team FA looks like, in my mind.

I know that sometimes we joke about how we provided that extra special something by giving that "sick belay" to a friend when they finally finished up their project, but that's just it- a joke. Am I psyched to belay a friend when they send something they've worked hard to accomplish, especially an FA? Absolutely. Do I pretend I somehow contributed in a meaningful way to the FA to the point where my name is noted next to his or hers in a guidebook? Definitely not, unless I also sent the route and/or was deeply involved in the developing process (in which case I'd prefer to be listed as the equipper, not a member of the FA party, if I didn't send it at or near the same time).

Yes for alpine routes, no for almost everything else.

I think it also depends on if you are FAing some abandoned project or going out finding the line, cleaning it, bolting, then sending. As far as Kristina and I go we always list each other with whoever actually sent first listed first. However none of the routes we put up as a partnership would happen if not for both of us.

So, should just belaying get you listed on a FA- No, Should being part of the process from start to finish- Yes.

Randy Leavitt, a pretty prolific fa'ist, has some very relevant comments on his enormocast interview, episode 17. (My mind's tellin' me link, but my computer, my computer's tellin' me no.) Worth a listen whether you're interested in this particular topic or not.

I have always regarded f/a's as a team event

Thanks for the heads up about Randy Leavitt speaking about FAs on the Enormocast Episode 17 at minute 45 into it. enormocast.com/episode-18-r….

I consider it a team event too. I usually list both if the belayer has seconded in some form (preferably cleanly)or at least contributed significantly - leader's name first. If it was just a quick passing belay I might not.

FA: Both parties get credit (there's a lot of aided FA's)

FFA: The members of the party who sent each pitch without falling, be it on lead or follow.

Hey Allen, I did a three pitch thing last summer and included everyone that helped out over the three days it took to lead the pitches even though the FA bottom to top was me and another guy that did nothing but follow, OH, AND BELAY!

The other folks belayed me as I lead it ground up hooking and drilling and getting sketched out.

So I guess I don't list the FA. I list the FAT, as in team. As Randy Leavitt said in the Podcast it isn't just about me, or you or whoever gets it first it is about the crew that was involved. So unless I solo it I will list those involved. Maybe not everyone who held the rope in some 40 try project but at least the main helpers and the person that belayed when the route got sent.

1Eric Rhicard wrote:Hey Allen, I did a three pitch thing last summer and included everyone that helped out over the three days it took to lead the pitches even though the FA bottom to top was me and another guy that did nothing but follow, OH, AND BELAY! The other folks belayed me as I lead it ground up hooking and drilling and getting sketched out. So I guess I don't list the FA. I list the FAT, as in team.

You can't have a fart-floatin nose-pickin ball-scratchin dog-lickin rope snaggin bong spillin slob-son-of-a bee-layer and still crush.

Give that sore neck bastard some kudos.

RESPECT

Wow, I'm really surprised at these responses.

Everyone involved gets credit, even if it's a belayer who can barely climb 5.8 and the route is 5.14.

Otherwise you're pretty much saying you're a selfish jerk.

Disclaimer: there can be quite a gap between getting the name & FA info to the local author(s) and the time the guide comes out…not to mention errors, etc on the part of the guide author...

Give credit to the sapient responsible for your safety. Otherwise you're just a solipsistic poseur.

Sidenote:
Who can use the word asymptotic in a sentence about climbing!?

Crap, Greg said almost the same thing.

Maybe the pros should start recording FA's like this too...

La Dura Dura - FA: Adam Ondra and Chris Sharma

I name my first ascents after my belayer. Give him big time credit. Make sure his/her name is in the guide book.