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Cochise Stronghold: Toofast Topos & Cochise Climbing

Jack Ubaek · · tucson · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 20
cochiseclimbing wrote:Others will snag those second ascents out from under you.
Noooooooooo!!!!!!! the horror!

cochiseclimbing wrote:This project will loose money and publishers have turned me down because of that.
wow $46 and your going to lose money? isn't sqeezing the lemon like $30? and thats from a guy that has been posting his routes on mp free for years and has made no effort to keep his routes and areas secret. that guy must be losing tons of money then. isnt he on his 2nd edition now?

just making observations here. once the guidebook comes out the routes and areas will all be posted up to mp for everyone so i really hope thats being factored into the financial expectations. personally thats too steep for my blood. i may be forced to wait for the online version, sorry.

best of luck to you both en your endevors. i know it cant be easy putting a book together. thanks again geir for all your hard work replacing bolts and making free topos.
Mike Diesen · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 365

Just wondering if Geir is still around. I tried signing up for TooFast topos a couple months back and still haven't heard anything. I've sent him a couple emails and still no response. If anyone knows the best way to get ahold of him I'd really appreciate it.

Eric Sophiea · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 232

Mike, try messaging Geir via Mountain Project.

Brian Benedon · · Tucson · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,682

Jimbo; best wishes on your recovery.

forgive, forget, lay-off!

Dudes, SA has done more for the S. AZ climbing community than anyone else ever has or ever will.
How many climbers go back and clean and fix up routes so others can enjoy them safely?
I could not tell you how many times i've had a great time because of Scott's hard work and dedication. I remember taking many runs on The Breeze thanks to a re-installed hold. I appreciate the time and $ spent.When I climb his routes I could not care less if a hold or placement has been creatively modified or reinforced. If I did know I would most likely be glad for it. SA is a pro, he puts up quality routes. He puts more thought and effort into his routes than anyone else around here. If you ask for it, he will give you detailed beta.
If you don't enjoy his routes, try asking Creater for some route beta.
Before you ethics police make any negative comments, ask your self; what have I done for the community lately?

Jefe, looks like you got 6 weeks to red pint those routes down there. oops, only two week left.

$46 does seem like a lot for a book. in perspective, that is about how much I spent for gas to drive out there last weekend. I would give SA the $46 just for putting up routes. In fact i've offered, he always says to donate to the Access Fund.

Imagine if Toofast and Cochise Climbing would consolidate their efforts.That is about as likely as Guns n Roses getting back together.

Piece,

Brian

wwwcochiseclimbing com · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 140

Thank you Brian for giving me the opportunity to clarify some confusion in previous posts. The guidebook is $39.99 and if you need it shipped to you I ask that you include $6 for shipping. If you are local we will have a release party and you can celebrate with us and pick up your copy. I, for one, will be celebrating…

A guidebook of this magnitude can only be made with help form the community and so far I have had over 50 people donate photos. Again, if you have photos please send them to me and if there are routes you have put up please contact me. This book will be as comprehensive as I can get. Even if you just climbed an obscure route and have some beta that you think is important-please get it to me. This book will cover hundreds of routes. There are 33 on the Sheepshead alone and I have yet to number the Rockfellow Group.

And jefe, can't wait to bring you more of Scott's "bitchin routes". You guys have no idea what is out there. Better start training now! If you have seen my blog on our website cochiseclimbing.com you will see that I have been. The Stronghold is our community's oyster and I am inspired to crack into it.

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60
brian benedon wrote: I could not care less if a hold or placement has been creatively modified
I don't want to get too far into this, but I do care. There are a lot of gray areas regarding what is acceptable in route development. Modifying a hold on granite is wrong. Period.
Greg Opland · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 181
brian benedon wrote:When I climb his routes I could not care less if a hold or placement has been creatively modified or reinforced.
This is really disturbing to read. A guy has put up a lot of accessible routes with lots of bolts, so we'll give him a pass? Understand if you're friends with Scott and want to support him, but chipping and gluing? Unacceptable. Big time. Regardless of the type of rock.
Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

Brain,

Thanks for the well wishes. I'm back climbing, badly.

I think I have contributed to the community a bit through the years, so I do have enough cred to comment on some of Scotts regrettable practices.

So by your argument, if I volunteer at a soup kitchen everyone should forgive me for being a pedophile!!

No chance. I'm not going to forgive or forget, and I'm going to continue to remind people that this kind of activity is unacceptable.

I'm with Russ and NC on this. If your OK with chipped holds your part of the problem not part of the solution.

I'm amazed a backcountry guy like you is OK with chipping and cluing in an area like the Stronghold.

Did Scott Ayers slip you the Koolaid or did you drink it of your own volition?

Seriously dude WTF!

Marcy - · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 1,190

There are many people who have made, and continue to make, a hell of a lot of positive contributions to climbing in SoAZ.

Tightly bolted "safe" routes comprise just one small aspect of the climbing opportunities in the Stronghold. If that is what you have experienced or that is your preference, cool, but it does not equate to the person who drilled those routes having "done more for the S. AZ climbing community than anyone else ever has or ever will." Not by a long-shot.

Regarding chipping and gluing, it is quite disturbing that this shit exists in such a beautiful place, it equally disturbing that some choose to accept and support it. Seriously indeed, WTF.

Jefe Bret Harte · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 35

Brian said

"Red pint"

By the sound of that post I'd venture to guess there were more than a few red pints last night.

Chipping is bad mmmmmmkay?

And Marcy, safely bolted routes compromise climbing opportunities?
Would you elaborate?

Eric D · · Gnarnia · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 235
cochiseclimbing wrote:There are 33 on the Sheepshead alone.
Yikes!!!
Marcy - · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 1,190

Jefe, from Merriam-Webster:

comprise: (transitive verb) to be made up of (something); to include or consist of (something).

Jefe Bret Harte · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 35

Oops, sorry, misread.
But thanks for the snark.
I just know that your husband has expressed his feelings that seeing bolts on other routes compromises (look it up yourself) his experience while leading gear routes.
I understand that.
I also respect his traditional ethic and climbing abilities.

Jack Ubaek · · tucson · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 20
Eric D wrote: Yikes!!!
what 'yikes'? that's a big ass rock. when did 33 routes become too many for a bazillion square feet of climbing area?

And the rest of you, get over yourselves for shits sake. a couple smidges of glue in the hallowed stronghold and your delicate little world comes crashing down around you? you want perfect, pristine, unchipped rock go out and climb el cap. oh wait, nvm.

or is it that you think by 'allowing' the gluing that people will start flying down from the sky pouring glue all over everything? or is glue heresy as ordained by some divine stronghold doctrine inscribed into the heart of rockfellow by god himself?

how do you nitwits find time to stress out of this crap? poor russ sounds like his hair just burst into flames having read that someone could give two shits about glued holds. seriously, i just dont get the whole sanctimonious climbing ethic crusader mentality.
Eric D · · Gnarnia · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 235

Hi Jack,

You are probably right that a piece of rock that big could hold 33 independent lines. I said yikes because Sheepshead simply has way too many bolts for me. Too many variations and too many routes crossing each other. It would be a prouder formation with fewer, yet fully independent, lines.

And regarding your latest post - Even if you have a different opinion, you should recognize that the climbing community see things differently than you do and that the larger community should continue to influence how things are done.

Jack Ubaek · · tucson · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 20

understood eric and russ. thanks for not taking my rant personally.

honestly most of my head scratching comes from the fact that ive never met anyone in person that is at all wound up over things like glue, chain draws, chipped and crowded routes. the only people i see bothered by that stuff is a few folks here in the forums. being a newcomer to the area its been confusing trying to get a good sampling of the local mean ethic. the std deviation is just off the chart.

Greg Opland · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 181

I'm scratching my head about anyone that would condone chipping and gluing, let alone the capital offense I consider the actual practice. Chipping and gluing have no place in climbing. Its wrong, weak, and selfish and if we as a community don't take a stance against it, things will only get worse.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

jesus f'in christ the ethical traddies are at it again! I wonder how well the tradiban take advice from sport climbers? hmmmm

I can name many crags all over the world that were chipped/comfortized AND glued but in this alter world its mainly all on SA huh?

AZ witch hunt, get him boys!(or girlfriends of the boys)

Mike Diesen · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 365

First off Marcy, could you ask your husband to email me. I've emailed him a few times with no response.

Second, I've use mortar to reinforce some blocks in the Stronghold.

Jefe Bret Harte · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 35

All this talk of active chipping.
I thought the event everyone was still pissed about was the one Rockefellow episode, which was close to twenty years ago.
If people are perpetuating the idea that this is still going on just to make SA pay for past indiscretions, that's fucked up. If it is indeed still going on that's another story.
Are there more? Spill the beans people.
That Rockefellow deal sucked for everyone, especially the rock, but the route was removed and by Grossman's (ElCap) logic those edges should be erased by erosion any day now.
I'm not condoning chipping, no way, in fact, I hate it. But c'mon, everyone has made mistakes. I know I've made'm, the Fish's made'm, Jimbo, Geir, all of us. Sometimes it's the rock that suffers, sometimes it's someone's feelings. I would hope to be forgiven for mine, you too probably, right?

So lay it the fuck out there with some proof or stfu and let it go.

Because, you know why? Yet another thread drifted to the tar+feathering of SA, when it was originally about spamming the site.
Convenient how that works eh?
Cochiseclimbing spammed the site and toofast has been spamming the fuck out of the site for years. Do I really care? No. I, and many others, benefit from it. Geir gets his topos out there and makes money teaching people self rescue. This is a valuable contribution to SoAz climbing and climbers.
Even FishProducts.com enters our vision every time we view this thread. Great! Fucking sick products and service from a genuine American piton banging valley boy hardman.
I don't have a problem with any of you fuckers spamming the site.

What I have a problem with is the continued slander for actions that may or may not be happening now by the person you're accusing or any number of anonymous people climbing at the Stronghold.
It benefits no one.
Your feud benefits no one.

Defending the rock is a good thing,
attacking people isn't.

Put up or shut up bitches.

Rant over.

Ps- no red pints were consumed during this rant. :-)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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