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BLM vs Bundy

Dow Williams · · St. George, Utah; Canmore, AB · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 240

The Bundy supporters on site were gun toting idiots and bored people from Vegas ...not other BLM ranchers. That speaks volumes. I raised catted for a living, studied soil and plant science and got a degree in Animal Science. Anyone who has in depth knowledge of RESPONSIBLE ranching principles and practice knows full well that running cattle in these deserts is ridiculous and harmful on the long term ecology. They told him his lease was for 100 cows and he ran a 1000 instead. He is a thief and greedy bastard who could care less for the sustainability of the desert. He deserves to be in jail far more than some kid dealing crack in Las Vegas.

But then that is how it works in this country....corrupt bankers and ranchers get a pass....black dude has the audacity to get in the way of white suburbanites and their $5K road bikes in the desert west of Vegas, he gets mowed down in prompt fashion. Interesting which laws are enforced and which ones are not. Great Read...."The Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap" by Matt Taibbi. Most relevant journalist in America over the past ten years.

bernard wolfe · · birmingham, al · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 265

Just read where the Bundy family has been grazing cattle in the area of this jurisdictional conflict since 1954......heck, that's almost as long as I've been alive. Things are pretty darn sweet in the land of Bundy.......you get to take or use what you want, when you want, for as long as you want......and decide when it is you will pay for it, if you do at all.....on your own time. All I gotta do is start declaring stuff to be mine just because I've been around long enough......

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

Though the Bundy's have been ranching there since the 1880s, it does not appear they have a leg to stand on legally. Seems he is the last rancher in that immediate area and his ranch will disappear into history as the feds have slowly bled out the rest of the ranchers in the area. My only question is why bring in the BLM army? ( Why does the BLM even have paramilitary in the first place? ) Couldn't you just arrest Mr Bundy when he drives off his ranch?

Interesting to learn here he is worse and more dangerous than a crack dealer. Most likely the feds will eventually come down on him hard and some of you on this forum can rest a little easier knowing he is dead or locked away.

Giggles

BackCountry Sortor · · Ogden, UT · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 400

Yeah, what a hero!

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

Continue reading the main story
“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

nytimes.com/2014/04/24/us/p…

bernard wolfe · · birmingham, al · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 265

This guy is the biggest shyster deadbeat...... and then there are all the poor suckers that bought into his don't-tread-on-me schtick

From KLAS-Las Vegas:

LAS VEGAS -- Federal authorities remain silent about their next plans to confront Cliven Bundy at his Bunkerville ranch.

Both sides are fighting over history, with federal courts denying Bundy's claims of "ancestral rights" on the Virgin River valley. The I-Team dug into century-old records to examine Bundy's claims.

At the Bunkerville camp next to Cliven Bundy's ranch, there are constant reminders of history.

Revolutionary War flags, ancient Greek mottos and native American symbols, all mixing together to create a growing identity and narrative for protestors.

This land is unusually fertile and green for southern Nevada. Cliven Bundy grows melons there. They are said to be the best in the state.

His cattle, until recently, roamed freely on land managed by the federal Bureau of Land Management. Before the roundup that sparked protests, confrontations and gunmen taking a bridge, Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team.

"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.

The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born.

"My rights are before the BLM even existed, but my rights are created by beneficial use. Beneficial use means we created the forage and the water from the time the very first pioneers come here," Bundy said.

Early census records show Cliven's maternal grandmother, Christena Jensen, was born in Nevada in 1901 (other records show she was born in 1891 as Abigail Christina Abbott).

One word spreading through Bundy supporters and his armed guards is that what the federal government is doing to Bundy is exactly what they did to native Americans.

"They are literally treating western United States citizens, ranchers, rural folks like this- are the modern day Indians. We're being driven off of our lands. We're being forced into reservations known as cities," Justin Giles, an Oathkeeper from Alaska, said.

The local Paiute Indians were forced into reservations by federal troops in 1875. Two years prior, the tribe was promised the same land Cliven Bundy now grows his melons ,and until recently, grazed his cattle.

The I-Team's research team has come up with an in-depth look at the genealogy and property records that form the basis of Cliven Bundy's claim of ancestral rights on the ranch land.

J. Serpico · · Saratoga County, NY · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 140

It's been a while since I've seen a thread as great as this. Keep it coming.

Name · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 25

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro...they abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy?" --Cliven Bundy

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

Ahhh, no more sympathy for Mr. Bundy. I wonder how he will go. Only a matter of time now before he gets greased. Looks like a few people will be happy when he's gone.

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266
D.Buffum wrote: And of course, the contempt of court matter is separate and distinct from any crimes that he and his posse may have committed during the standoff related to weapons, threatening federal agents, holding hostages, or other crimes.
Wow, he did all of that. I wonder if the BLM LE can just roll in there with an MRAP, run over his cattle and flatten his house. They ought to be able to put some drone surveillance in the air to make sure there are no militia around. I would recommend hellfire missles but that would going to far, these are civilian police after all.
Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266
D.Buffum wrote: Note the use of the modal verb "may have," indicating that I do not know whether he and his sympathizers committed any crimes.
I have no idea what this "modal verb" stuff is. I am not arguing with you. For all I know you may have spent time in prison once and have prison gang associations. No way am I going to mess with you. This is the internet, all kinds of psychos lurking out there. But I get the point you are trying to make.
marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20
Rick Blair wrote: Wow, he did all of that. I wonder if the BLM LE can just roll in there with an MRAP, run over his cattle and flatten his house. They ought to be able to put some drone surveillance in the air to make sure there are no militia around. I would recommend hellfire missles but that would going to far, these are civilian police after all.
Nuke from orbit. Behead any remains.
Steve Jones · · Fayetteville WV, · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 105
Rick Blair wrote: Wow, he did all of that. I wonder if the BLM LE can just roll in there with an MRAP, run over his cattle and flatten his house. They ought to be able to put some drone surveillance in the air to make sure there are no militia around. I would recommend hellfire missles but that would going to far, these are civilian police after all.
You know, the crazy, paranoid people used to be on the left in the 60s. They imagined all these same terrible things the government would do, only a very little of which actually happened. But they were smoking a lot of weed, so it was more understandable.

The conservatives were the pragmatic, realists then. Paradoxically, it has flip flopped and the right wing just keeps getting further and further out there. Glen Beck, who has a ranch, says that Bundy should pay his grazing fees. What the hell is Bundy and his true believers smoking that Glen Beck can call BS on him?

Never thought there were come a day when liberals would become the realists.
BackCountry Sortor · · Ogden, UT · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 400

I really hope this hick ends up in one them jails full of "young negro men with nothing to do." Can we get this on FOX as a reality TV show please?

Steve Jones · · Fayetteville WV, · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 105

Not to say they are perfect by any means, but the BLM seems to do a pretty good job of trying to balance the interests of various user groups. Unlike Bundy, they use real data and rational processes. However, when faced with an irrational, militant user who has a powerful vested interest, they're in a tough spot.

Remember that Bundy and his cohorts don't want any federal government, as if state governments, or worse yet, county governments were somehow "less government" and less subject to manipulation by powerful interests. That means no Park Service, no EPA, etc. What kind of shape would our mountains, climbing areas and rivers be in if they were strictly left up to each state?

Altered Ego · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

For the sake of arguement I would say that there are far more savory characters exposing wrong doings than unsavory. There are entire organizations devoted to this but not many hear them.

I don't know about Miranda but what did King do? Wouldn't the person filming the beatdown be the one exposing something? And wouldn't the reaction from the black community be the the real impetus for change? And is our system really any better because of this or does this same shit continue everyday and have even grown worse?

Merlin · · Grand Junction · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 10
SinRopa wrote:Government wrongdoings are often exposed by unsavory characters. Ernesto Miranda was a kidnapper and child rapist. Because of his case, the police have to read you your rights before they can question you, and our justice system is better for it. Rodney King was an armed robber, drug dealer, and wife beater. His interaction with the LAPD exposed a widespread culture of police brutality, and our justice system is better for it. Cliven Bundy is clearly a bigot who is trying to avoid paying what he owes. That doesn't mean that the events surrounding his case can't have a positive outcome: exposing heavy handed intimidation tactics and unconstitutional actions ("free speech zones") committed by agents representing the federal government.
Best response in the thread.
Steve Jones · · Fayetteville WV, · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 105
jeff walz wrote:Good points Ropeless. Well said. As for today's news: Cliven needs to brush up on his Nat Love. He might also consider the relationship between SNAP (food stamps) and the USDA. Farmers and ranchers receive aid. Both ends of the spectrum get welfare.
I'm sure Bundy would rather brush up on the CSPOA ( cspoa.org/) and the Posse Comitatus ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse…). These groups have a long history or racism and antisemiticism that follow the sovereigh citizen movement ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sover…). Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were (maybe are) sovereign citizens.

So it's not unreasonable that the BLM came prepared to Nevada.
Scott Phil · · NC · Joined May 2010 · Points: 258

The issue of Free Speech Zones has been around for far too long. Wikipedia Wikipedia article has a fairly good entry. These have been used to limit speech in a variety of areas--from UC Berkeley in the early 1960s to the most recent incidents. The use of Free Speech Zones was greatly expanded in the Bush year. It was mostly used to stop people from protesting Bush's policies. Simply wearing the "wrong" t-shirt could get you sent to a fenced area completely out of sight and sound of the event.

Is speech still free if there is no one to hear it?

Yet some kinds of speech seem to have greater latitude--such as the Westboro Baptist Church protests at military funerals.

Sometimes it is a difficult call. In 1979 members of the American Nazi Party and the KKK attacked a protest of the American Community Party, killing five people in Greensboro, NC. The dead included a nurse and a pediatrician, among others. The situation was exacerbated by there being very few law enforcement personnel present. Maybe a few more police and a Free Speech Zone might have saved a life or five there?

The situation at Bundy's ranch was escalating quickly. Many of Bundy's supporters were very well armed and had taken up positions on the high ground. These were not Bundy's neighbors. Several of them seemed more interested in confrontation than in protecting Bundy's dubious claims. Sadly, it is all too easy to imagine this scenario ending very badly. Thankfully it did not.

michaeltarne · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 120
huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/…

It just keeps getting better!
Steve Jones · · Fayetteville WV, · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 105

Yes, it keeps getting more instructive too. I think we need to think about how we, as climbers, view land managers. It's pretty easy to ascribe suspicious motives to them, when our suspicions should be (at least sometimes) more focused on the characters, such as Bundy, that land managers have to deal with.

Another case in point: In Wyoming, the BLM has prosecuted ranchers who were overly aggressive with climbers.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Nevada
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