Wait, what grade do you lead?!?!

If they're leading x rated routes then they are pretty hardcore.

Back when I was on top of my game I would never commit to a long route unless I was willing to lead all the pitches.
Despite the intial plan to swing leads I sometimes ended up leading many, if not all of the pitches.
So another approach is are you willing to lead all of the pitches and what can the person follow?

It totally depends on context.

If we're talking about a specific route (e.g. "you want to do regular route on fairview?") then I usually just say "yes" or "no".

If we're talking about what routes I'd be interested in *in general* so we can look for stuff to do, then I usually just throw out a few routes or a general idea (e.g. "let's look for some 5.9ish stuff in tuolumne" or "I'd be up for some 5.10-5.11 sport in the gorge").

If someone is just asking "yo brah what grade do you climb?!", then I take the grade of the hardest route I have ever shamelessly hung my way up on top rope, take the 5 off, put a V in front, and use that.

Make sense?

Instead of saying you can lead x.xx grade, tell what what you like to climb. I typically dont tell people that I can lead 5.xx. Rather I just say that I enjoy onsighting in the 5.11 range and projecting in the 5.12 range. If they need to know more I can give them more specific numbers, but that normally tells them enough.

If we are talking about doing a serious climb, say grade III or above, I typically ask them what similar climbs they have done. When I go up El Cap I dont ask my partner what he can lead, I ask him what other walls he has done. I find that approach gives me a better understanding of my partner's capabilities than asking for a specific number.

In short, if you want to know what your partner is capable of, focus less on asking for their exact redpoint or onsight limit grade, and more on what type of experience they have and what noteworthy climbs they have finished.

Have to admit - I think I'm a terrible communicator with this thread. Lots of getting hung up on the grade thing.

My main curiosity is really: why the rampant bending of the truth (especially for the better) when it comes to one's ability - it's especially concerning since it is often an issue of safety (need to move efficiently/safely on a longer route, etc etc).

I did Astroman, Half Dome, Rostrum for the 1st time with 3 different people I've never met or climbed with before last summer. If you can't easily figure out whether somebody is solid, it speaks more to your own inexperience.

I'll somewhat agree with the above. You can tell a lot about someone's ability by watching their form during a warm-up climb.

Adam Burch wrote:Have to admit - I think I'm a terrible communicator with this thread. Lots of getting hung up on the grade thing. My main curiosity is really: why the rampant bending of the truth (especially for the better) when it comes to one's ability - it's especially concerning since it is often an issue of safety (need to move efficiently/safely on a longer route, etc etc).

I would say it's an ego thing, but that's not the full story. People exaggerate the grade they claim to climb because that is how respect is earned in the climbing community.
I've experienced this first hand - for about the last year and a half I have consistently been the weakest climber in my group of friends, opting to top-rope, flailing, wimping out on leads, etc, then in the past couple months I've really stepped it up and gotten a lot stronger, and it has made a huge difference in how other climbers, those I know and those I don't, treat me. Whereas before I was basically dismissed as the random belay-slave accomplice, now I am much more likely to be treated as a peer, even if I am still not very technically skilled.
This is why people inflate their grades, they want respect, they want to be taken seriously. I led my first 5.11 a couple weeks ago and if someone I didn't know asked what I lead I would be sorely tempted to say 11a, even though the honest answer is probably more like 10b. Being a strong climber means something to me, it's (unfortunately) tied up with my self-worth, so it is, on some level, just an ego thing, but you can't ignore the collective valuation of skill level in the climbing community. If we want people to stop inflating their grades to unsafe degrees, we need to take a good look at how we treat weaker climbers – condescension, dismissal, and arrogance are way too common (and I'm as guilty as anyone else).

Adam Burch wrote:My main curiosity is really: why the rampant bending of the truth (especially for the better) when it comes to one's ability - it's especially concerning since it is often an issue of safety (need to move efficiently/safely on a longer route, etc etc).

Well, you might have to be more specific with the question. If you just ask "what grade do you climb," that leaves significant room for interpretation variances.

However, if you were to ask our example climber "what grade can you consistently onsight on sport at the RRG," you would likely get a different answer than if you just asked what grade he or she climbed. The more specific you are with your question the more accurate of an answer you are likely to get.

OP:
Climbers,

You are kicking around the idea of climbing with someone new. Route is a little committing. You're trying to get a sense of the other person; do you really want to tie in with this person?

They tell you they lead 5.X

What do you believe?

In my experience, people tend to puff themselves up a bit, maybe a grade or two more than they're actually comfortable leading.

Besides ego, why do people fib? Maybe that's the only reason?

Climbing is about raising yourself up a grade. Reaching for something more.

You go out with someone new and you want to present yourself in the best possible light while being reasonably sure you can pull it off.

Simple mechanics, mate.

csproul said: mostly ego...I as guilty as anyone, I'm sure.

I applaud you for admitting that right off! I am also "guilty".

the answer is: ego IS the only reason to lie. Ego exists through identification. Identification of a certain style, difficulty, mind set, etc, etc. Ego can also just as easily be in the person that down plays himself; IM NOT SAYING because you do downplay or dont its ego, im just pointing out ego isnt all about "puffing" up. its simply identification with form; either physical (external universe/world) or thought and/or emotion (inner universe).

if you are truly just awareness, just conciousness (no ego influence, mind is but a small part of conciousness) then telling the truth is a natural byproduct, it doesnt take consideration/thought.

I'd have to say I disagree with the entire thesis of this thread.

Maybe it's a midwestern/southern thing but most people I know are either hesitant to disclose the grade they climb or sandbag themselves quite a bit.

But as someone mentioned earlier - you should be able to tell by watching them climb for a few minutes.

I would rather tell you that I climb at a lesser grade and then overperforme than vice versa.

But, after 42 years of climbing, and at the age I am, ego does not play a big part in my description of my abilities. I can pretty much climb at the grade I say I can.

You cant climb until you've done 5.9 at the gunks

Ask them what they mean by 'lead 5.XY' and then offer them the crux pitch.
Usually that shakes out what people really do.

My luck has been mostly good with the grades people tell me after some clarification. You just have to ask if they mean red point up to that grade, or on-sight it hungover.

Mark Hudon wrote:I would rather tell you that I climb at a lesser grade and then overperforme than vice versa.

+1

Locker said: Nothing like a huge bowl of EGO for breakfast!

Locker, I love your posts! You are a master at direct, simple, yet effective (effective = getting your point across) responses! You crack me up dude!

It would have been more accurate to say "you can't say you climb 5.9 till you've climbed 5.9 in the Gunks".

In eldo, that 5.9 would be 5.9

Again, thanks for the thoughtful responses.

This really isn't about "how do you detect if someone is good or not".

It's about "why do fools feel the need to stretch the truth on their ability".

Some of you get it - danke.

There are a lot of ego issues with climbing - that's what make a guy like Hudon/etc refreshing. The only reason I care to up my climbing ability is because it opens up new routes or areas to me that were off limits before. Don't need to impress the ladies/fellas with my 12d crimp skillz.

Locker, stop taking this so seriously and go climb something ;)