Removing draws from a route

Jorden Kass wrote: This only works if the second can climb at the same level. This doesn't always happen and I have been on both ends, climbing with somebody much better that I can't follow on their hard lead and leading with someone who has trouble following mine.

It will work fine with one climber. Just climb, and rap. No top rope necessary.

redlude97 wrote: It's not abuse if that is the developer's intent for the gear he puts in. Developers in many area install anchors expecting and wanting people to lower off of them and do so themselves when I run into them at the crag.

I agree. The consensus is about what we say and do. If you meet people who lower through their gear, they certainly intend for others to do so.

I don't always climb at my home crag, and don't know who set up my anchors. Out of respect for the gear, I choose to rap. We may disagree on practice, but certainly we can agree that taking more time to rap is respectful. I recently climbed in RR and rapped off every climb at the sunny and steep wall. It actually sucked cuz I ended up 3rd everytime, and my 2 buddies took me off belay and then looked for another climb, ate something, or did nothing. It's nice to take someone off belay and then get your gear together, put your shoes on, load a bowl...define productivity how you want to.

Furthermore, would you press the brake pedal when driving downhill, or shift to a lower gear? You may wear out your brake pads, but you can just replace them. Catastrophic failure be damned. When it's time for them to be replaced, they will have gotten replaced. Probably by someone who knows what they are doing.

Maurice Chaunders wrote:Furthermore, would you press the brake pedal when driving downhill, or shift to a lower gear? You may wear out your brake pads, but you can just replace them. Catastrophic failure be damned. When it's time for them to be replaced, they will have gotten replaced. Probably by someone who knows what they are doing.

...right

The thought to save wear by rapping is nice, but missplaced with beefy sport anchors. I would be willing to bet the vast majority of eqipers of routes with sport anchors prefer that you lower off rather than rap. We put them there for people to use. Watching people needlessly rap off them makes my stomach churn. I feel like I want to walk around the corner so I don't have to watch some gumbie crater. (only slightly exaggerated)

Maurice Chaunders wrote: It will work fine with one climber. Just climb, and rap. No top rope necessary. I agree. The consensus is about what we say and do. If you meet people who lower through their gear, they certainly intend for others to do so. I don't always climb at my home crag, and don't know who set up my anchors. Out of respect for the gear, I choose to rap. We may disagree on practice, but certainly we can agree that taking more time to rap is respectful. I recently climbed in RR and rapped off every climb at the sunny and steep wall. It actually sucked cuz I ended up 3rd everytime, and my 2 buddies took me off belay and then looked for another climb, ate something, or did nothing. It's nice to take someone off belay and then get your gear together, put your shoes on, load a bowl...define productivity how you want to. Furthermore, would you press the brake pedal when driving downhill, or shift to a lower gear? You may wear out your brake pads, but you can just replace them. Catastrophic failure be damned. When it's time for them to be replaced, they will have gotten replaced. Probably by someone who knows what they are doing.

Try this on a route that is actually steep and let me know how that works out for you.

The "Chuffmo", a technique I find usefull when cleaning steep sport routes is (safest if you use a grigri) have the belayer start climbing up the route. This allows the climber to lower and the belayer should be able to grab the first few draws. Belayer lowers back to ground and climber takes softer swing high off the ground. Not for all situations but a nice trick just the same.

M Sprague wrote:The thought to save wear by rapping is nice, but missplaced with beefy sport anchors.

Yeah perhaps. I just hate seeing rap rings worn out. I make a point to rap as often as possible, mostly to spite myself.

Also, I climbed today and lowered off a climb, out of laziness.

you second the climb on the other end of the rope (the part through the draws) once its put up by the leader.

Then you lower off and go to another route.

5.samadhi wrote:you second the climb on the other end of the rope (the part through the draws) once its put up by the leader. Then you lower off and go to another route.

That's nice that you only climb with people at your level that want to do the exact same routes as you.

Wow, I must be old. I'd just belay at the anchors and we'd both rap down. (I apparently do climbs my partner wants to do.)

redlude97 wrote: That's nice that you only climb with people at your level that want to do the exact same routes as you.

Uhmmmm...that's what I do, for the most part...

Its interesting that both sides of this particular debate seems to be making an "of course, everyone does it that way, its a beginner mistake to do otherwise" claim.
Having learned to always rappel after cleaning, I am rather surprised that it is apparently common practice to lower through the chains on steep sport routes, the only people I've ever seen do that are gym climbers who didn't know how to rappel. But then I learned on trad, so it fits the pattern.
I have definitely seen plenty of chains that would wear thin pretty quick, but I climb in areas w/ predominantly vertical walls, so cleaning on rappel is never really a problem, especially if you know the leg wrap trick.
I'm not sure whether to be surprised that steep sport climbing has developed its own set of norms or not, I suppose the danger factors on an overhanging route are just fundamentally different from those on positive or vertical faces.

If no belayer had ever climbed with someone who rapped off sport routes, that would be the end of "miscommunication" accidents. Please don't rap off sport routes, unless you are soloing.

Jacob Smith wrote:Its interesting that both sides of this particular debate seems to be making an "of course, everyone does it that way, its a beginner mistake to do otherwise" claim. Having learned to always rappel after cleaning, I am rather surprised that it is apparently common practice to lower through the chains on steep sport routes, the only people I've ever seen do that are gym climbers who didn't know how to rappel. But then I learned on trad, so it fits the pattern. I have definitely seen plenty of chains that would wear thin pretty quick, but I climb in areas w/ predominantly vertical walls, so cleaning on rappel is never really a problem, especially if you know the leg wrap trick. I'm not sure whether to be surprised that steep sport climbing has developed its own set of norms or not, I suppose the danger factors on an overhanging route are just fundamentally different from those on positive or vertical faces.

if the chains where then why don't you replace them? the only a few bucks

Jacob Smith wrote: ...But then I learned on trad, so it fits the pattern. ...

That is exactly it. You have to be flexible enough to realize you are dealing with a different animal and adapt your techniques. I too first learned on trad (and bouldering), where if you had fixed anchors they were usually some pins or fixed nuts or tree with a nasty nest of old slings and a couple aluminum rap rings if you were lucky. You definitely want to rap from that stuff. Proper modern sport anchors are built to be lowered off; bomber, beefy and if possible situated where your rope will run cleanly.

Cleaning on lower is much easier. You are hands free and you are not screwing around with leg raps or exposing yourself to rappel errors like misaligned rope ends or not setting it up properly when you are all excited or fatigued. You do have to rely on your belayer, but they are on the ground, rested and the rope is already in the belay device from belaying.

Jacob Smith wrote:Its interesting that both sides of this particular debate seems to be making an "of course, everyone does it that way, its a beginner mistake to do otherwise" claim. Having learned to always rappel after cleaning, I am rather surprised that it is apparently common practice to lower through the chains on steep sport routes, the only people I've ever seen do that are gym climbers who didn't know how to rappel. But then I learned on trad, so it fits the pattern. I have definitely seen plenty of chains that would wear thin pretty quick, but I climb in areas w/ predominantly vertical walls, so cleaning on rappel is never really a problem, especially if you know the leg wrap trick. I'm not sure whether to be surprised that steep sport climbing has developed its own set of norms or not, I suppose the danger factors on an overhanging route are just fundamentally different from those on positive or vertical faces.

Set up as if your would rappel but the belayer keeps the climber on belay and the climber raps on a single strand with a Gri Gri and can easily tram in to each draw. This saves wear on the anchors. Climber and belayer must clearly communicate this is how the climber will descend before leaving the ground!

Peter D. wrote:Set up as if your would rappel but the belayer keeps the climber on belay and the climber raps on a single strand with a Gri Gri and can easily tram in to each draw. This saves wear on the anchors. Climber and belayer must clearly communicate this is how the climber will descend before leaving the ground!

That is paying too much (adding danger and hassle) to have a negligible gain (saving wear on the anchors). Keep it simple!

Peter, you forgot to add wearing a tinfoil hat while whistling Dixie.

There have been many accidents from fiddling at the anchor. Biners at the chains are best, even though trads make a frowny face cuz that is what gyms do. Replace with old biners as necessary.

David Sahalie wrote:There have been many accidents from fiddling at the anchor. Biners at the chains are best, even though trads make a frowny face cuz that is what gyms do. Replace with old biners as necessary.

Ironically, the crag I've been to that has the best anchor setups, steel carabiners at the top of most climbs, is also the one with the least sport routes - Trout Creek.

some people are talking like this anchor Rings carabiners chains are not replaceable. They are easily replaceable.