Ball nuts

I've only started to trad lead in the last year, and like most everybody I know who's tried it; I fell instantly in love. And like most newbies, I love to read and learn about it. So I thought I'd look for wisdom on the MP forums :)

I have never used ball-nuts, only one of my friends even carries them. I was curious what are the advantages of them? I mean I understand they are small, but so are micro cams, and brassies. So what special niche do they fill? What are your experiences with them. Disadvantages? Love to hear your thoughts!

And if there is anyone out there who doesn't know what a ball-nut is camp-usa.com/products/climb…
I linked CAMP only cause it came up first on google.

So mighty internet users, lets here your thoughts, stories and rants on ball-nuts. Do you carry them? Do you trust them more/less the a itty-bitty c3 or 000 tcu?

I have ball nuts and haven't used them yet in a week of climbing since I got them. The way I see them is sometimes they're the only option, and I'm the type of person who would rather have options than runouts, so I'll bring them in my pack in case the route calls for it. I think (and this is just my guess) that they become more relevant once you get into the higher ratings and the cracks may be smaller. I've heard they're less durable. I'd still rather waste some money by falling on a ball nut than risk my health by falling on nothing. I think they're especially good for aid climbing where the force won't be as great. I've never placed one, like I said, but I think they go smaller than the micro cams.

There are certain situations where having ball nuts are great-where you wont get any other gear or really have to fight for gear. LCC has some routes that are perfect with them and hard to protect without. I have the first three sizes and don't think I would get any of the bigger ones, unless I had a very specific need.
Dallen

Ballnuts are specialty pieces which (in the two smallest sizes) can provide protection in thin cracks that won't take the smallest cams. They are tricky to place, potentially unstable, and can be difficult to clean. If you intend to rely on them, you'll have to practice and test placements quite a bit to get a feel for what will and will not work. You can't just plug 'em in, so (on harder climbs) you need both mental and physical fortitude to hang on and get them placed correctly.

The following post from Joe Healy on rc.com is by far the best account of how to use Ballnuts that I've seen rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…;search_string=ballnuts;#2352968:

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"A popular myth about Ball nuts is they either come out easy or get welded easy - neither is true and both are a result of bad placements and operator error. Well placed Ball nuts are way better than today's "Microcams" and come out easy. I've taken multiple big [free] dives on about every conceivable placement and never had a single one not simply come right out. That said, 98% of my use of them is for free climbing and there are probably aid situations where unavoidable rotation and undesirable movement can cause problems, but while the following comments apply equally to aid climbing, they are derived from decades of using and falling on them free climbing...

For the ball nuts you kind of have to mentally scope everything way, way down to where you are working in the land of millimeters and 1/64". By this I mean it is really worth sitting down with a ball nut and examining it with a macroscopic if not near microscopic perspective to really understand how and why it works and how it can work optimally. The first thing to notice is the relationship of the size of the ball to the blade/paddle slot; second is to really be cognizant of the total range of travel of the ball over the blade/paddle and the slot it houses. On most of them the ball can travel from beyond to slot to before the slot when you retract the spring.

The name of the game is where over the course of that travel will make the most secure placement. Another very important consideration is the "cinching" it will want to do in a fall or if you "set" it. That cinching/setting action by definition implies some amount of ball travel in the slot is going to take place. Anticipating and accomodating that ball travel is the name of the game in using them effectively. To do that you need narrower starting placement where the ball is only about a 1/4 of the way up from the initial bottom edge [widest] of the slot. That will mean when it cinches up in a fall or you set it hard it should end up cinched up to somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of the way to the end of the blade/paddle/slot. This is the most essential aspect of using ball nuts.

The other important aspect of using them is the [material] strength, texture, and topology of the crack you are placing it in. Obviously the harder the material the better. Surface texture does count in terms of how fast the blade travels in the cinching/setting process - completely slick, polished rock better be damn hard to stop the travel whereas a slightly rougher surface (such as our basalt here) is better as the blade/paddle cinches slower. As for topology, ideally you are looking for at least a slight constriction or contusion as opposed to an absolutely parallel sided affair.

The key to placing them is to get your face and eyeballs in there to the macro level and really understand all three aspects of any potential placement - hardness, texture, and shape. Placing ball nuts is not a slam and jerk affair, but rather requires close inspection, precise placement that takes advantage of every subtle feature, and most of all the resulting placement has to guarantee that the ball ends up in a position relative to the blade/paddle such that there is no possibility of the piece cinching up so much that the ball rides right over the end of the blade/paddle.

Again, to be clear, that means at max load in a fall the ball has adequate slot to travel and still not run off the end. So a placement where the ball starts out 2/3's of te way out the blade/paddle may not hold by the time it really cinches up in a fall unless it is in really hard rock and the topology of the placement won't allow it to travel far."

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Additional observations:

(1) When placing, you want to get the ball to "stick." Under load, the "paddle" travels, not the ball. If the ball moves, the piece will probably blow. So in addition to getting the ball in an appropriate spot on the paddle so it doesn't run off the end under load, you want to find the best "sticky" spot for it. This could involve texture, mini-protrusions, or constrictions.

(2) Ballnuts should be set and tested with jerks. You better be holdin' on hard with the free hand when you do this, because if they do come out it could easily cause a fall.

(3) Rotation can make Ballnuts blow. Think carefully about rope motions and slingage.

(4) To remove, you have to reverse the paddle wedging action, and the trigger isn't always effective enough. Tapping on the edge of the "paddle," i.e. pushing the paddle in a little bit, will free up the ball to be further triggered. Unfortunately, the edge of the paddle in the smallest Ballnuts might be too thin to tap easily with a nut tool. Rotation, mentioned above as being bad, can sometimes facilitate removal.

I've had them on my rack for years although I'll use 'bigger pieces if I can.

I've taken low-fall-factor lead falls on them no problem. I think a slight constriction in direction of pull is good but do not think I had that during lead falls.

I also think setting them like a nut is good as well as extending the sling. It seems to me they come out easily if popped loose although I have not had that happen that I recall except when deliberately cleaning.

SexPanther aka Kiedis wrote: ^^^^The blind leading the blind. I've used them for a decade, they go up many, many pitches a year with me. I've commented so many times about these, it feels redundant to go into it yet again. Healy's post is quality. Like any other gear, try it for yourself rather than relying on a bunch of total strangers to do your thinking and experiencing for you. For the record, I feel like this should be posted in beginner climbers.

I wrote the disclaimers about my experience in the post--you're just being redundant. It would have been useful if you had instead pointed out what is or isn't true about my post.

Are they sometimes the only option?
Does having them sometimes help protect what would otherwise be a runout?
Do they become more relevant at higher ratings when the routes may consist more of smaller cracks (this is due to my observation that the thinner finger cracks tend to be rated harder)?
Don't people complain about their durability?
Aren't particularly good for aid?
Do they go smaller than micro cams?

Here's a new opinion: if I had to choose aliens blue-red vs ball nuts 1-3, I'd rather have the aliens.

Pontoon wrote: I wrote the disclaimers about my experience in the post--you're just being redundant.

So was your post; your inexperience makes your opinion not matter.

Nice, so now we're calling reply #1 (mine) redundant. Did I repeat information the OP somehow presented? All the while, you're redundantly calling my post worthless due to my inexperience, which is exactly what SexPanther aka Kiedis did. Therefore, you've added yet another redundant post to this thread. How about you experienced folks add some real value to this thread by either telling the OP more or correcting me? My opinions aren't haphazardly constructed. They're the result of research in books and online, and I asked for numerous peoples' opinions before buying them. So far I went a week of climbing every day without wishing I had them--that in and of itself should be useful info for the OP. I also don't regret buying them.

I got a set after years of curiosity. Carried them for a full season, didn't place them very often. Now I don't carry them unless I'm specifically expecting to want them.

The two smallest do work in thinner cracks than microcams, and those are where they're valuable. But they also require a fairly deep crack. Maybe it's the nature of the rock I mostly climb (New England granite), but I rarely meet cracks that are thin enough to need a ball nut, deep enough to accept one, and don't also offer a good constriction for a traditional nut.

yes but has Bearbreeder whipped all over them in Squamish?

this is what really matters here, everything else is complete nonsense.

SexPanther aka Kiedis wrote: You said you preferred a blue-red alien placement over a #1-3 Ballnut. This is roughly equivalent to saying that you prefer a #12 Valley Giant over a 00 TCU. There is no overlap between placements of blue aliens and any of the smallest three sizes of ballnutz, which would be obvious if you were out climbing on this gear rather than advising people on subjects which you are clearly poorly informed on.

You misinterpreted my post and created a straw man in the process. What I wrote was "if I had to choose aliens blue-red vs ball nuts 1-3, I'd rather have the aliens." I wrote "have", and I meant "possess," not "place."

If you had read more carefully, I wrote "... but I think they go smaller than the micro cams." But no, I must be operating under the assumption that the smallest ball nuts (which I own) are the same size range as the aliens (which I own).

Pontoon wrote:Nice, so now we're calling reply #1 (mine) redundant. Did I repeat information the OP somehow presented? All the while, you're redundantly calling my post worthless due to my inexperience, which is exactly what SexPanther aka Kiedis did.

Pontoon, may I respectfully suggest that this would be a good time for you to gracefully bow out? You really have no reason to take offense; by your own admission, you expressed an opinion on a piece of gear you've never used, and the resulting responses you've gotten have been unusually civil by internet standards. Just let it go.

JL

SexPanther aka Kiedis wrote:Sax, we been trolled, brah.

Maybe. But I did enjoy your valley giant/TCU analogy.

JL

Pontoon wrote: You misinterpreted my post and created a straw man in the process. What I wrote was "if I had to choose aliens blue-red vs ball nuts 1-3, I'd rather have the aliens." I wrote "have", and I meant "possess," not "place." If you had read more carefully, I wrote "... but I think they go smaller than the micro cams." But no, I must be operating under the assumption that the smallest ball nuts (which I own) are the same size range as the aliens (which I own).

So your point was that in general you find finger sized cams more useful than the three smallest ball nuts?

Pretty solid troll post. 3 stars out of 5.

Ryan Watts wrote: So your point was that in general you find finger sized cams more useful than the three smallest ball nuts? Pretty solid troll post. 3 stars out of 5.

So what your saying is, Blue Alien is finger size for you?

The three smallest sizes are on my RP rack. They come in useful but are finicky. Indispensable when the seam/crack flares in.

RGold had a great write up about placing them. Look higher up.

rocknice2 wrote: So what your saying is, Blue Alien is finger size for you? The three smallest sizes are on my RP rack. They come in useful but are finicky. Indispensable when the seam/crack flares in. RGold had a great write up about placing them. Look higher up.

Cool thanks I missed RGold's post since I always read threads from the bottom.

MJMobes wrote:yes but has Bearbreeder whipped all over them in Squamish? this is what really matters here, everything else is complete nonsense.

personal attacks here little one?

youre the one giving your "expert" advice on link cams when you dont own and use em =P

as to ball nutz, i dont own em and have rarely used em

;)

They are nice on discontinuous cracks, for placements too narrow for micro-cams. The range maybe the same, but the head is way narrower than of cams but they go in deeper. As Rgold's post states though, you need good stances to place them so they are not very good pieces for very sustained climbing. I have whipped on the #3 before. I'd rather whip on a small ballnut than on a hand-size Link cam. Also, CAMP and Trango ballnutz are made at the same factory I was told, they're the same except for the colors I think...

If you've ever thought to yourself "that route has lots of thin cracks that are easier to reach, it would be nice if I had something to plug in there" or "if i could protect a few of those thinner spots I could save that cam for further up" Ballnuts are your pieces. ***braces for the inevitable rebuttal***

Since they are small I try to place 2 at a time and equalize them if I can. I use them on every climb. Never fallen on one.

Doubles of 2 & 3 would be useful for a solo climber.

After buying sizes 1-3 I don't know how I survived without them. They go in places nuts won't, and the #3 looks way stronger than a triple zero cam.

• Usual caveat about being mindful about the quality of the rock*

I own and have fallen on the 2 smallest sizes. They are on my micro pro biner with my BD micro offsets. Amazingly, the ballnuts are all rated at 8kn whereas only the biggest BD micro is 8kn. The nut looks so much beefier! Weight, strength, depth of crack- they are good IMHO.