Does anyone actually use a mountaineering axe?

Here is the situation. A friend and I have recently gotten interested in ski mountaineering. For background, we are both competent skiers, however, I also alpine climb, ice climb, rock climb, etc. Where I am a climber, he is much more on the "peak bagger" end of the spectrum. He has done numerous 14ers in Colorado but is obviously not well versed in the climbing aspect of mountaineering. He is fine in regards to the endurance, altitude, slogging, miseryfest part, as well as the skiing, but climbing is not his strong suit.

Despite my constant urging, he refuses to carry anything but a mountaineering axe insisting, "It is the right tool for the application." That being said, being in the mountains, I always carry my Vipers. I am much more comfortable knowing that I have tools that I can dry tool with, climb ice with, climb steeper snow with, and plunge if necessary. Perhaps the only advantage I can see of a mountaineering axe is that its length gives you more leverage in a self-arrest situation.

On numerous occasions we have hard to turn around because of a small rock or ice section in a couloir that he is unable to climb with a standard mountaineering axe. Putting aside the obvious points that my friend needs to become more of a climber if he intends to ever summit anything and just to generally be prepared for anything in the mountains, does anyone actually use a mountaineering axe for anything but low angle glacier travel? From my perspective, a mountaineering axe is used as a walking pole, as a snow anchor, self arresting, and for ascending low angle snow ( < 35 degrees). An versatile ice tool (i.e Vipers, Cassin All Mountains, even Cobras) can be used for all of these things plus are a much more capable tool for dealing with more technical terrain.

Basically what I'm asking is a mountaineering axe a totally antiquated tool at this point other than a few highly specific applications? Can't a versatile ice tool do everything a mountaineering axe can plus quite a bit more? Why would anyone choose to bring one mountaineering axe into the mountains as opposed to two "all-mountain" tools?

I use my CAMP Corsa Nanotech, along with a whippet, for most ski mountaineering objectives. This setup works fine for most steep snow and small rock/ice bands. If I know that I will be encountering proper mixed sections on a route, I'll bring proper ice tools and crampons. It really depends on what your comfort level is. Tony Krupicka climbed Martha with a Corsa and microspikes.

I think you're conflating general ski-mountaineering with alpine climbing with a ski descent. I'll bet your buddy signed-up for the first one. That said, if you can't climb a 50 degree *snow* slope with just a traditional mountain axe, you really aren't in a position to judge the need of such a tool.

Regarding the need for a mountain axe, I would argue that if your friend is not willing to get a pair of technical ice tools at ~$300 a pop, he might also not be willing or able to use them if he had them. Fundamentally, ski-mountaineering is regular mountaineering (e.g. glacier travel) on skis. So talk to your friend about what he really wants out of this, compare that to what you really want out of this, and determine if you need new, more ambitious partners.

I guess to clarify, I find especially with winter climbing, conditions are always changing. You might climb a couloir one week and it is steady 30 degree snow the whole way. You may come back a week later and there may be a 10 foot rock band in the middle of it. How often do you climb a couloir and not encounter anything you didn't expect? Every time we think it's going to be one thing, it seems is always an unforeseen obstacle where tools come in handy, i.e. rock bands, ice runnels, etc.

I guess to be clear I see ski mountaineering as getting to the summit and then descending on skis as much as practicable. Obviously, if you have to climb a 20 mixed section to get to the summit, you're going to have to down climb or rappel on the way down.

Also, getting back to my question specifically, is there any advantage to a mountaineering axe? What does it do that a technical tool can't? What does it do better than a set of technical tools? In every application, I've found my Vipers perform just as well as an axe and can obviously do a lot more. Am I wrong on this? Is there some benefit to mountaineering axes I'm missing?

Longer axe = bend over less when using it to stabilize on snow/low angle ice, easier to self arrest, straight shaft plunges more easily, works for lots of long slog basic snowfield climbing. Just depends what kind of climbing you're planning to do. Guides usually recommend a classic mountaineering axe for glacier travel. Much of my activity is similar to your friend's but I did pick up a set of tools for couloir climbing. I'd take the tools any time you're expecting it to be steep.

MarktheCPA wrote:Longer axe = bend over less when using it to stabilize on snow/low angle ice, easier to self arrest, straight shaft plunges more easily, works for lots of long slog basic snowfield climbing. Just depends what kind of climbing you're planning to do.

Can't a technical tool do all this as well? Everything you mentioned it seems like a mountaineering axe just does it "more easily". I don't find doing any of these things with a technical tool is that difficult. Plus, I have the added versatility of the technical tool. Again, I'm failing to see the benefit of a mountaineering axe.

I used mine only a few times; while doing the Glissade down the side of Mt.Quandry, and as a walking stick while ascending steep snow. They work well as a rudder...self arrest I would imagine be easier vs. using a pick...Most of these issues have already been addressed above.

TheBirdman wrote: Can't a technical tool do all this as well? Everything you mentioned it seems like a mountaineering axe just does it "more easily". I don't find doing any of these things with a technical tool is that difficult. Plus, I have the added versatility of the technical tool. Again, I'm failing to see the benefit of a mountaineering axe.

Just added to my last post a little but yes a tech tool can do all of that it's just tougher to self-arrest with especially if it's an aggressive tool and picture using a 55cm tool as a cane vs. a 75cm axe. If I'm slogging hours up mod snow then I'm going to want that extra 20cm. If it's steep then the short tool will be easier to handle and you'll be able to get technical if you need to. Just personal preference and also objective dependent.

IMHO you BOTH need to expand your horizons. I can and have used an 60 cm axe on short but steep icy terrain, 60 degree plus. On the other hand if you think one needs technical tools on slopes greater than 35 degrees, you are not that competent of a climber.

So to answer your question, no a mtneer axe is not obsolete. Why carry extra weight of two tools for a short section of the route that can be done with a single tool? Short tools suck for plunging on lower angle slopes where you need something. I'll a very good example Kautz Glacier route on Rainier. Many people think they need two tools for a 150-200 foot section that gets icy and is at best 45 degrees. Mean time they have 3000+ feet of up that is lower angle.

That said I often take ski poles with my short tools for routes that have long approaches. The same for when taking an axe, my ski poles come along. One can learn to shuffle pretty fast with not a lot of energy using one tool and a ski pole.

My suggestion would be for you to both go out with a single axe and learn to use it on steep terrain, you both might become more competent.

I'd argue a straight-shafted tool is superior to tech tools the following applications:

1. Boot-axe belay

2. Crevasse rescue applications (component in an anchor, padding the lip maybe)

3. Self - arrest (have you ever actually done self arrest practice on a slope with a tech pick? Good way to tear your rotator cuff).

4. Nominally more secure self - belay (plunged straight shaft on moderate slope is more secure than dagger position on ice tool or a fat hole created by pommel and slightly curved shaft)

Whether or not these issues are relevant for you two on the terrain you're hitting is a separate question.

1 axe, 1 tool works real well for Cascade routes requiring glacier travel and technical sections. I wouldn't want to be without a standard axe in a crevasse rescue situation (self, arrest, t-slot, deadman anchor, boot axe belay) More utility than carrying an extra picket

1 axe, 1 tool works real well for Cascade routes requiring glacier travel and technical sections. I wouldn't want to be without a standard axe in a crevasse rescue situation (self, arrest, t-slot, deadman anchor, boot axe belay) More utility than carrying an extra picket

Has your friend considered a Black Diamond Venom or similar? It's a hybrid between a technical tool and a traditional axe. It works really well for snow couloirs and moderately technical ice. It's longer than the Viper and it's got a straight shaft (so it's good for plunging and 30-45 degree slopes) but it's shorter than a traditional axe and the pick is more aggressive (so it's also good for steeper ice). As Allen pointed out, if you've got an adjustable ski pole you don't really need a long-handled axe anyway.

I used a pair of tools or a mountaineering ax depending on the route and conditions. For me,the advantages to the mountaineering ax are:
1. its lighter
2. on low angle terrain i hunch over less, my sticks are better and i move quicker
3. for self arrest is much easier with a mountaineering ax is a lot of conditions
4. new climbers are better at self arresting with a single ax, more simple, less shit to get in the way

I don't always feel more secure with a set of tool compared to my ice ax, it very route dependent.

Is it possible you that your friend is right and you just have too much ax in your life? have you given the mountaineering ax a try?

Maybe I'm just being thick, but in my head I'm still not seeing the benefit to a mountaineering axe for actual climbing. I get that it may be easier to self arrest. I also recognize that mountaineering axes are much better for snow anchors and crevasse rescue applications. However, as many people pointed out I find the mountaineering axe as a walking pole argument ridiculous. I always have poles which are vastly superior for walking purposes than a mountaineering axe. And just to be clear, I don't carry my technical tools for ascending 35 degree snow slopes. Typically, less than 45 I just use poles and crampons and find that works quite well if you just shorten the poles. While some have pointed out why bring 2 tools that you really only need for 5% of the climb when one tool will work for 95% of the climb, I would argue the same reason you bring a # 6 for one placement on an alpine route. That 5% of the climb becomes safe and a minor issue instead of a major crux with serious consequences. I have not heard one compelling reason that in terms of CLIMBING APPLICATIONS a mountaineering axe has any usefulness other than making a few things that are possible with a technical tool, slightly easier. Crevasse rescue situations are a different animal outside the scope of my question.

One point Alan raised that may be the most valid is the weight issue. The Cobra adze (heavier than the hammer) is 1 lb. 6 oz. Multiplied by two you're carrying 2 lbs. 12 oz. A single Venom is 1 lb. 3 oz. Two vipers only weigh an ounce or two more than two Cobras. So really, we're talking somewhere in the range of a pound to a pound and a half when bringing two technical tools or one mountaineering axe. Recognizing the importance of weight that amount could be significant. However, I'll point out that by only bringing the single mountaineering axe, additional gear may be required for safety. For example, if we hit a 5.6/M1 rock band, I can easily solo that with my Vipers. With one mountaineering axe, that relatively easy section becomes much more difficult possibly necessitating the use of a rope and protection. So the reduction in weight from only carrying one tool is quickly lost by compensating with other gear.

I have yet to hear a compelling reason why two tools are not vastly superior to one axe is virtually every application, other than crevasse rescue. They can do everything one axe can plus climb WI5/M10. They are more secure on steep snow slopes and allow you to move more efficiently. For anything low angle, poles work as well or better than a mountaineering axe. Again, maybe I'm just an idiot missing the point but a single mountaineering axe is very limited in what it can do. Two tools can do all of those limited uses plus everything else you might want in the mountains, especially when things don't go as planned or unforeseen obstacles are encountered.

Martin, I had the Venoms. I didn't think they did anything particularly well but they could do everything adequately. It may be a good compromise from my friend's perspective.

In short, I'm still waiting to hear a clear advantage of a mountaineering axe over two technical ice tools.

2. on low angle terrain i hunch over less, my sticks are better and i move quicker

Why would you use an axe on low angle terrain instead of poles? As has been evident to me on numerous occasions, on low angle terrain poles and crampons function just as well as an axe and crampons. For anything that gets steep enough that poles aren't sufficient, I like two tools with my hands directly under the picks "punching" placements instead of swinging. I find this is much more efficient and I can move much more quickly. Instead of trying to walk up steep snow as my friend with the axe does, with two tools it becomes more like slab climbing and I can move much more quickly and ascend much steeper terrain.

TheBirdman wrote:Maybe I'm just being thick, but in my head I'm still not seeing the benefit to a mountaineering axe for actual climbing. I get that it may be easier to self arrest. I also recognize that mountaineering axes are much better for snow anchors and crevasse rescue applications. However, as many people pointed out I find the mountaineering axe as a walking pole argument ridiculous. I always have poles which are vastly superior for walking purposes than a mountaineering axe. And just to be clear, I don't carry my technical tools for ascending 35 degree snow slopes. Typically, less than 45 I just use poles and crampons and find that works quite well if you just shorten the poles. While some have pointed out why bring 2 tools that you really only need for 5% of the climb when one tool will work for 95% of the climb, I would argue the same reason you bring a # 6 for one placement on an alpine route. That 5% of the climb becomes safe and a minor issue instead of a major crux with serious consequences. I have not heard one compelling reason that in terms of CLIMBING APPLICATIONS a mountaineering axe has any usefulness other than making a few things that are possible with a technical tool, slightly easier. Crevasse rescue situations are a different animal outside the scope of my question. One point Alan raised that may be the most valid is the weight issue. The Cobra adze (heavier than the hammer) is 1 lb. 6 oz. Multiplied by two you're carrying 2 lbs. 12 oz. A single Venom is 1 lb. 3 oz. Two vipers only weigh an ounce or two more than two Cobras. So really, we're talking somewhere in the range of a pound to a pound and a half when bringing two technical tools or one mountaineering axe. Recognizing the importance of weight that amount could be significant. However, I'll point out that by only bringing the single mountaineering axe, additional gear may be required for safety. For example, if we hit a 5.6/M1 rock band, I can easily solo that with my Vipers. With one mountaineering axe, that relatively easy section becomes much more difficult possibly necessitating the use of a rope and protection. So the reduction in weight from only carrying one tool is quickly lost by compensating with other gear. I have yet to hear a compelling reason why two tools are not vastly superior to one axe is virtually every application, other than crevasse rescue. They can do everything one axe can plus climb WI5/M10. They are more secure on steep snow slopes and allow you to move more efficiently. For anything low angle, poles work as well or better than a mountaineering axe. Again, maybe I'm just an idiot missing the point but a single mountaineering axe is very limited in what it can do. Two tools can do all of those limited uses plus everything else you might want in the mountains, especially when things don't go as planned or unforeseen obstacles are encountered. Martin, I had the Venoms. I didn't think they did anything particularly well but they could do everything adequately. It may be a good compromise from my friend's perspective. In short, I'm still waiting to hear a clear advantage of a mountaineering axe over two technical ice tools.

You seem to be pretty set so just stick to using your two tools and let others use what is most appropriate for the situation? Yes if you are expecting to "climb" then tell your friend that you anticipate possible mixed climbing or steep snice and suggest that tools may be needed.

This really just sounds like mismatched expectations. Many people go ski mountaineering and "climb" ridges that will never have a 5.6 rock band and only involve snow slogging upward.

You mention using two poles and crampons but it depends on terrain and party skill level. Maybe it's low angle ice not low angle snow, maybe the climber isn't totally solid on crampons, a basic rule is that if you have crampons on then you have an axe in your hand.

Everyone here has answered why some might prefer a mountaineering axe and you have told us your preferred style of climbing.

For those of us that are a bit taller, using a short ice tool is literally a pain the ass/back when walking for long distances on moderate snow. I would end up hunched up for miles at a time if my ax was too short, which is definitely the case with my tools. Self arrest must be quite a bit harder with a short, curved tool as well .I don't know that from experience but that is what my instinct tells me. The Vipers are about 20 cm shorter than my mountaineering axe. There is no way I am walking for hours at a time bent over like that.

If I expect the possibility of some easy mixed then I might bring along one tool to supplement my axe. But to me it sounds like you shouldn't take your friend to an area where the potential for steep ice or mixed exists if he doesn't have the necessary tools. There are plenty of couloir routes around where the chance for such things simply does not exist. An ice Axe and ice tool are simply for two different scenarios.

The basis for me being so set on two tools is I don't want to be limited in what I can do. A mountaineering axe has, what seems to me, a very narrow application. Ice tools encompass those few applications as well as can climb WI5/M10 and everything in between. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather be prepared for anything in the mountains. Even assuming you pick a route that you absolutely know is low angle snow and will only require a mountaineering axe, what if you get off route? What if the snow sluffs off leaving only bullet hard ice beneath? The mountains are unpredictable. With a mountaineering axe, that becomes a dangerous situation and you can't continue on. With technical tools, it's a non-issue. I guess a broader way of phrasing my question is why limit yourself with one mountaineering axe when two tools can perform the same functions as well as others that may either be necessary in the mountains or at the very least, make certain obstacles easily passable that would be much more difficult and/or impossible with a single axe?

James Hicks wrote:For those of us that are a bit taller, using a short ice tool is literally a pain the ass/back when walking for long distances on moderate snow. I would end up hunched up for miles at a time if my ax was too short, which is definitely the case with my tools..

Do you not bring poles?

TheBirdman wrote: Do you not bring poles?

Sometimes, but I can't self arrest with poles. I wouldn't consider anything in the 30-45 degree range steep IMO, but I sure wouldn't want to try and self arrest with a pole in that situation.