Take responsibility for your area!!

Ignore Christian's bickering. Hes trying to make a personal issue a public issue, which I choose not to take part in. I apologize to everyone for being subjected to this dribble.

Go climbing, have fun and be safe.

Warm Regards - Anders

POSTED FROM A COMPLETELY NONBIAS STANDPOINT:
As a newer member of the SoAZ climbing community (about 4 years ago), I was surprised to hear stories about past fights, feudes, bickering, and general disrespect towards each other in SoAZ.
When I came onto this scene everyone was always so welcoming.
Lately the aforementioned flames of aggression seem to have been rekindled. Usually over nonproductive post to area specific threads.
It would seem to me that the "problem" actually lies in that, many climbers now days are accoustomed to trusting every bolt fully and blindly. I do it often, but I've also bothered to read the first paragraph in every instructional/guide book I've ever read. It always says something to the effect of;
"Climbing is enherrantly dangerous... ...use this book along with your best judgement at YOUR OWN RISK.
To me this applys to every bolt I clip. (Maybe someone other than the FA has messed with a bolt, or two, or all of them.)
Eric, Jimbo, Geir, et. all are just posting a PSA. If you don't like it don't adhere to its message, teach those you mentor differently, and state when publishing your own FA's that you would like to be contacted before ANY MAINTENENCE IS DONE. But please don't turn this into another SoAZ sucks, bolt/ethics war, shit show.
Respectfully,
-Mackley

Christian......a rather "defensive" response wouldnt you agree?.......You must be an FAist......humor me....had my intentionally blunt comment been more along the lines of "christian i genuinely appreciate all that youve done for route maintenance and i whole heartedly admire your concern for the well being of other climbers however it seems the generalities made about FAist have (likely unintentional) connotations of belittlement. Perhaps we can refrain from such things please and thank you." This i presume would have merited a much different less hostile response. My point being, the human race is a defensive one, but that doesnt mean we arent all approachable when respect and tact is exercised......i think route safety information is of extreme importance and should always be commented on as soon as a potential for injury arises.........but heck.....what do i know....im just a morbidly angry, potentially violent, 20 year old whose never been around the proverbial block.

Cheers

Dominic, don't think I missed the part where, at Prison Camp, I asked you a question, and instead of answering from a normal conversational distance, you stepped up to within a foot of my face.

Yes, that falls under my definition of potentially violent.

I genuinely dont recall said instance.....but im sure it was a hostile one....because it certainly couldnt have been due to prison camp being notorisouly loud with wind and children.

Yes Christian, Dominic and I are the most violent people anyone has ever meet (extreme eye roll). We go around at night talking too close to peoples faces and eating their first born children,if those are too small we eat their second born. We beat our friends and loved ones when they step out of line or if we have a bad day, because why not? We like to trip the elderly as well when we're board.

Lets TRY and get this thread back on topic. Here is a picture of my maintenance kit I carry around with me all the time.

Kit Includes:
- 2 spare nuts and hangers in case the route I'm climbing is somehow missing some.
- Wrench
- spare anchors in case I find some worn out that need replacing
- brush, for cleaning less popular routes when on them
- 1 bail beaner, cause sometime I get scared...so what.

Again EFR, Jimbo, Geir and all those guys are good to contact if you need more information on good items for your maintenance kits.

Dominic Weinstock wrote:I genuinely dont recall said instance.....but im sure it was a hostile one....because it certainly couldnt have been due to prison camp being notorisouly loud with wind and children.

You know what Dominic? Much like Anders, I grew up in a violent place. Friends of mine and friends of the family were murdered, kidnapped, or harrassed by kidnappers to the point where they murdered their entire family and then committed suicide. My stepmother died in a gruesome car accident when macho Brazilian taxi driver met macho Brazilian bus driver. I've had guns and knives pulled on me during random street crime from a very early age.

Most of my friends growing up were badass BJJ fighters and often going out at night was just a process of waiting for the nightly melee. Even though I mostly didn't participate and didn't learn any martial arts myself until much later, I was often at physical risk myself just by virtue of being there. But I was mostly left alone because my best friend was a cousin of the Gracies.

Because of my upbringing and because I know where he's coming from growing up in South Africa, I can't help but admire some of Anders' toughness. Paradoxically, that also makes me trust him more, because he probably understands getting into a cycle of aggression and retaliation is just not worth it.

You, on the other hand, scare me more because you seem like you have something to prove.

Don't even try to blame what you did at Prison Camp on noise because that is utter bullshit. But the dumbfounded look on your face when I didn't step back was almost worth the whole incident. Overall though, I would have preferred it not to happen, and I'm not stupid enough to relish the prospect of having to defend myself from someone who's got almost 70 lbs on me.

Rest assured I will defend my right to feel safe in my own (adopted) city, even if it means exposing this kind of stuff publicly. I feel other people should know about this stuff too and it's also a way of keeping myself safer.

Folks.

I have known Christian for 8 years and consider him a close friend. He is about as fair and level headed a person as I have ever met.

I haven't met Anders or Dom in person (as far as I recall) and I wasn't around for any of the incidents that sparked this.

However, in my time in Tucson I have definitely seen deliberate intimidation and threats occur. I have personally witnessed people threaten to assault other climbers, both in person and in writing. Let's not kid ourselves or gloss over the fact that this kind of stuff happens.

Let me be the first to say I am not perfect and get worked up about climbing stuff more than most. Most people know I take pretty staunch positions and I try to be honest about it. However, I do my best not to deliberately threaten folks. If I see that happen the people involved lose all credibility and respect as far as I am concerned.

Geir, it's a good thing you didn't mention any names or we would have to kill you.

Christian, I would not for a second call my doing new routes an altruistic endeavor. I love doing new routes, finding that great gem of a climb. It's all for me with the added benefit for other people in the future.

Anders and I had an internet spat some years ago. Now we're conferring with each other about new routes on a regular basis. I like this kind of relationship much better. Way more productive.

Again....genuinely dont know what youre refering to at pc.....but if it would give you peice of mind ill keep my distance......not my intentions for anyone to feel threatened.

OMG what do you know more bickering and fighting among the climbing community of Arizona and New Mexico. Its pretty sad and pathetic you guys are all such a bunch of whiners, I haven't seen any other climbing community act this lame. Sure there is argueing and bickering but people from NM and AZ always manage to take it to a new level! You guys are sad.

1Eric Rhicard wrote:I would love to see a post like this. Found a loose hanger on Nang so I took my wrench back up the climb and tightened it back down.

Why would ANYONE EVER make a post like that? That is just stupid and a waste of everyones time. Should people also make posts telling people a hold was sandy so they decided to brush it off? Or maybe you would like to know everytime someone picks up a piece of litter at the cliff? The reason no one makes these posts is because it doesn't need to be reported to the climbing community where as lose or crappy bolts should be.(yes people shoudl tighten it down themselves but if they don't for wahtever reason I dont see an issue with a post telling other climbers about it)

Sheesh has the desert sun burned everyones brains in NM and AZ or what? What a sad excuse for a climbing community, we are all climbers. Stop acting like a bunch of 11 year old girls on the playground. Gosh you are a bunch of a little girls.

TYJ1981 wrote: Why would ANYONE EVER make a post like that? That is just stupid and a waste of everyones time. Should people also make posts telling people a hold was sandy so they decided to brush it off? Or maybe you would like to know everytime someone picks up a piece of litter at the cliff? The reason no one makes these posts is because it doesn't need to be reported to the climbing community where as lose or crappy bolts should be.(yes people shoudl tighten it down themselves but if they don't for wahtever reason I dont see an issue with a post telling other climbers about it) Sheesh has the desert sun burned everyones brains in NM and AZ or what? What a sad excuse for a climbing community, we are all climbers. Stop acting like a bunch of 11 year old girls on the playground. Gosh you are a bunch of a little girls.

No dog in this fight, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone posting that a route needs maintenance, or that maintenance was performed. If you don't possess the knowledge or skills to fix something on a route, or you just don't have the tools with you, then I consider it a good public service to post up and let people know that something might ned fixing. Sure, it'd be better if everyone just fixed it themselves. I'm all for everyone learning more about the equipment and carrying a fix-it kit. Great idea, but the next best thing is to let other people know that something they're about to get on might need a little TLC. Not sure why anyone would take offense to that.

As for announcing that you just did route maintenance, also a good public service. Maybe you've been avoiding a route because you heard the hangers were loose. Of course the best thing you could do is to fix it, but the reality is that not everyone is going to know how to do it. So I'd welcome to if someone posted up and told me a route was fixed...I'd know it was good to go, and I'd know who to thank. Again, not sure why anyone would be offended by this.

WOW!

Everyone I have met at the crags in AZ has been totally cool. Seriously, in the three years since I moved back to Phoenix and the time I spent climbing here while living in Tucson in the 90s I have not had a single bad interaction. Not one. In fact, most folks I have met at the crags here have gone out of their way to be really nice. With that in mind, I am totally baffled by these Souther AZ threads that are so often filled with conflict and vitriol.

I hope to see you all out at the crag, but never want to piss any of you off on the intrewebs.

Cheers.

NC Rock Climber wrote:WOW! Everyone I have met at the crags in AZ has been totally cool. Seriously, in the three years since I moved back to Phoenix and the time I spent climbing here while living in Tucson in the 90s I have not had a single bad interaction. Not one. In fact, most folks I have met at the crags here have gone out of their way to be really nice. With that in mind, I am totally baffled by these Souther AZ threads that are so often filled with conflict and vitriol. I hope to see you all out at the crag, but never want to piss any of you off on the intrewebs. Cheers.

Exactly, I am not sure why AZ and NM people spend so much of their time online bickering. Does the climbing or weather suck there or do you guys just like to bicker with eachother. All of your threads turn into some huge arguement/pissing match. Its kinda sad and pathetic to be honest.

TYJ1981 wrote:(A bunch of silly generalizations about online bickering)

In case you haven't noticed, this happens in all internet forums from people living all over the world. You can chime in with your input but making aggressive and silly generalizations adds nothing to the thread. I have to give kudos to these guys here for using their real names in the forum and at least communicating about issues/problems they feel they have.

And to answer your question in one of your rants, the weather definitely does NOT suck in AZ and NM--we've got it damn good.

Anders Zway, that's a good-looking maintenance kit you've got. Well done.

Jason Halladay wrote: In case you haven't noticed, this happens in all internet forums from people living all over the world. You can chime in with your input but making aggressive and silly generalizations adds nothing to the thread. I have to give kudos to these guys here for using their real names in the forum and at least communicating about issues/problems they feel they have. And to answer your question in one of your rants, the weather definitely does NOT suck in AZ and NM--we've got it damn good. Anders Zway, that's a good-looking maintenance kit you've got. Well done.

I disagree. You guys from NM and AZ have taken online bickering to a whole new level. Sure online bickering is rampant but thats usually directed at random topics, not specific geographical locations. Where is all the threats of violence from people in the Utah thread? Or the Nevada threads? Kentucky? Oregon and Washington?

Nope, this type of fighting amongst each other is specific to one area and its NM and AZ! It has been discussed before. Are people just douche's there that don't know how to play nice or whats up with all the hate for eachother?

Our problem down here in the SW is we can climb 340 days a year so we have a better chance of rubbing each other the wrong way. Not the end of the world. Never actually heard of anyone doing anything as silly as assaulting anyone. I am guessing with a little introspection among those involved this will work itself out as these things almost always do.

It helps that most folks down here have the guts to use their real names so we all know who is not getting along.

Nice Kit Anders!

Well said Eric.