Munter Backup

Clip the b/u prussiking to your leg loop, will keep from rubbing

Paul Wilhelmsen wrote:OP do you use a backup every time you can?

I'm not the OP but I use a backup when multi-pitch rappelling. I don't use it on single pitch when I see both ends of the rope on the ground.

I use a backup every time I rap, my reasoning being as follows. Accident statistics show that the overwhelming majority of accidents happen on the way down and that two steps easily could prevent a significant number of those. Tying stopper knots on your rope ends, and rapping with a backup.

If you always do these two things they'll be habitual so they end up wasting less time and you will automatically use it the 1% of the time when you actually end up needing it. It's also very difficult to predict when you will need it. If this means backing up a single pitch 20m rap, so be it if it will keep me from rapping off the ends of my ropes in the dark. Sort of the same mentality as taking 3 seconds to put a seatbelt on, vs only wearing one when you're planning on crashing.

On long rappels its very convenient to be able to let go without doing the leg wrap.

I don't judge people for not backing up raps. Unless they start lecturing me about safety... "you need at least 3 trees in a safe TR anchor. Man my leg is going numb from these wraps around my thigh. But I don't like rapping with a backup."

I once forgot my belay device on a short trad follow. I being a "smart climber" threw on a munter hitch and rappelled. This is one of the few repels I didn't back up only being 50 feet or so from the ground. I usually don't repel 20 feet with out backing up but i was feeling great that day and said screw it.

About 20 feet down, the rope unscrewed the the lock gate and poped out of the carabiner. Next thing I know im falling, so I bit down on the rope with my hands and burnt the crap out of them. I stopped 10 feet before the ground, and down climbed the rest of the rope.

Turns out I tied the muntner hitch wrong ,but always always back up your rappels. prussik above below as long as it within reach it really doesn't matter.

Extend the locker you're muntering from with half of a locker quickdraw or even a short sling girth hitched. Backup off your leg loop. You should be golden.

krzy wrote:Turns out I tied the muntner hitch wrong ,but always always back up your rappels. prussik above below as long as it within reach it really doesn't matter.

This is foolhardy advice, and anyone who reads it should consider that it's coming from someone who nearly killed himself by rapping with an incorrectly tied Munter. If you're going to employ a rap backup of any sort, you better understand how to use it.

I've seen new climbers get themselves stuck using an autoblock below their device, and I can only imagine the CF that would ensue if they had tied a prussik above, whether it is within reach or not.

I think the best idea so far has been to extend the munter with another locker and use a normal backup. I might see how it works the next time I'm out.

Jason Kim wrote: I've seen new climbers get themselves stuck using an autoblock below their device

Did they just tie the auto block too tight? Otherwise how? I've only seen people end up hanging from ones above the device.

The first time I saw this, I was just observing other climbers at the local crag and I can't say for sure what caused it. It's possible the hitch got sucked into the rap device. Based on the yelling that was going back and forth, it led me to believe that the person rappelling had never done it before.

The second time, it happened to my partner, who had never rappelled before. I installed the autoblock onto her extended rap device and everything was textbook. I rapped first and then she followed. She became stuck about halfway down and was unable to get moving again. She was adamant that the autoblock tightened up and she was unable to loosen it. I still have no idea what happened, but would guess that the two strands of the rope got twisted up and she just panicked due to the exposure, this being her first time. Regardless, it took about 10 minutes of coaching from below to get her moving again.

karstendelap.com/2012/05/17…

This is a much better solution. If you extend the munter it will twist the extended setup. The locking draw could prevent this a bit.

karstendelap.com/2012/10/20…

Again, yes, the carabiner break is a better, but not always available solution.
I don't think the locker draw would fix the rope running over the sling issue since it still has a soft material at the base of the hitched biner.

Moving the backup to the leg loop is also not a solution. That's where I had it in the first place.

The locking draw doesn't prevent the rubbing but does prevent the entire extension from twisting around on itself. You could also do a 2 carabiner break. If you are out of 2 carabiners that might be another problem! ;)

David Coley wrote: I'm no the OP, but my answer would be almost every time. The only time I might not is for a 30ft rap off a single monster tree, when the rock is totally solid. On a multiple pitch rap, with the need to sort the ropes out on the way down, looking for the rap station, moving past the odd unstable block, past the odd snake or seagull in a crack, heading slightly side ways. Every single time. One thing I've noticed is that people often go to the trouble/time of placing two or more pieces in and anchor when rapping, but don't use a backup prusik. This seems a slight contradiction,

IMO everyone should be HIGHLY proficient in rapping without a backup ... one of these days youll forget your cord or sling for the prussik/kleimheist

one thing ive noticed about newbies who "never" rap without a prussik is that many have absolutely and utterly poor rap technique ...

theyll bounce all over the place, wont sit down into the rap and let gravity do the work, have poor rope control, etc ...

just as one should be a highly proficient belayer before using an assisted locking device first, one should be a highly proficient rapper before depending on the prussik

im not against prussiks, they definitely make sense in many situations ... but if one cant rap confidently without one, one should not be belaying ... all you are doing is self lowering

;)

Jason Kim wrote:The first time I saw this, I was just observing other climbers at the local crag and I can't say for sure what caused it. It's possible the hitch got sucked into the rap device. Based on the yelling that was going back and forth, it led me to believe that the person rappelling had never done it before. The second time, it happened to my partner, who had never rappelled before. I installed the autoblock onto her extended rap device and everything was textbook. I rapped first and then she followed. She became stuck about halfway down and was unable to get moving again. She was adamant that the autoblock tightened up and she was unable to loosen it. I still have no idea what happened, but would guess that the two strands of the rope got twisted up and she just panicked due to the exposure, this being her first time. Regardless, it took about 10 minutes of coaching from below to get her moving again.

usually this happen when someone new uses too many wraps of the prussik and it locks up on them ... thick, fuzzy, wet, etc .. ropes make it worse

the kleimheist is MUCH superior IMO for a basic rap backup as it doesnt seize as much and can often be released by squeezing it down ... however even too many raps with that will cause problems

on a dual strand rap 2, no more than 3 raps of a nylon sling or cord is often enough for a rap backup under the device ... any more and youll be jerking all over the place and getting stuck

the other thing is that as i noted previously, DONT slide the knot down .... rather keep your hand on the kleimheist and pull the rope from it to feed the device ...

one way to prevent from getting stuck on a backup above or below is to use a mariners hitch to the biner ... tie the kleimheist around the rope then use the hitch to connect to the biner

as a bonus its MUCH easier to get the length right for the backup this way as you just wrap the tail around over and over again ... no need to shorten up the backup cord with knots



clip or tie off the loose tail for the mariners ... and get someone in real life to show u

;)

Bearbreeder, I use an auto block (aka french prussic I believe?). But I really don't buy your reasoning. It's much more difficult to have a smooth well controlled rappel with an auto block than without. More to the the point, a new climber may be more likely to get scared and let go if something goes wrong. Similarly, often times brand new belayers are backed up by a friend holding the brake strand behind them incase shit hits the fan. I don't think that the "throw people in the deep end" approach really applies to climbing, the stakes are just too damn high.

Additionally, I'm perfectly happy with my knowledge of how to rappel. This forum was not meant to be about mine or anyone's rappelling technique. That spray is everywhere. It was a question about how to make a certain scenario a bit safer.

Nate Solnit wrote:Bearbreeder, I use an auto block (aka french prussic I believe?). But I really don't buy your reasoning. It's much more difficult to have a smooth well controlled rappel with an auto block than without. More to the the point, a new climber may be more likely to get scared and let go if something goes wrong. Similarly, often times brand new belayers are backed up by a friend holding the brake strand behind them incase shit hits the fan. I don't think that the "throw people in the deep end" approach really applies to climbing, the stakes are just too damn high. Additionally, I'm perfectly happy with my knowledge of how to rappel. This forum was not meant to be about mine or anyone's rappelling technique. That spray is everywhere. It was a question about how to make a certain scenario a bit safer.

Use a firemans to back them up on rap until it becomes absolutelysecond nature for em

There is nothing wrong with a prussik IF it is used to prevent accidental situations such as rockfall, slipping on wet rock, being mauled by a cliff bear, etc ...

There is everything wrong with it if its being used as a crutch ti make up for poor rap technique, inattention to the brake hand, or simple fear

Just like you wouldnt give someone a grigri to make up for poor technique, you shouldnt be showing people to use a prussik backup till try have their rap technique and confidence down pat

If a person cant rap confidently, why would you trust them to belay you, its the same lowering motion

As to you original question ... Many have given you answers from biner brakes to just muntering off the belay loop to extending with another biner

Practice them and youll be fine

There MUST be thread drift on MP

;)

If people followed two concepts in descending many accidents could be avoided.

1. Use a back up.

2. Tie knots in the end if the rope.

I think with the first one instead of asking ourselves when to use a back up we should default to using one and ask when we shouldn't.

The same could be applied to the second as well...

bearbreeder wrote: you shouldnt be showing people to use a prussik backup till try have their rap technique and confidence down pat

If someone wants to learn how to rap, there comes a point where they just have to do it. It should be explained to them that they hold their life in their own hands. Giving them a fireman's as a backup is a smart decision. Installing an autoblock or other backup below their device is, IMO, also a smart decision. Why shouldn't you show someone how to use a backup if they are a beginner? Because you're afraid it will instill a false sense of security and increase the likelihood that they drop the brake? Or you're worried they will get stuck and you'll have to find a way to get them down? Please explain.

Edit: just saw your other reply above. I disagree. Though I see your point about learning correct technique from the very get-go, I fall into the camp that using a backup is part of good technique, or, at least, smart technique. Thus, I think it is wise to teach beginners, from the very get-go, that a backup always be used (below the device). I really don't see any disadvantages, there are numerous advantages, and it is a logical fallacy to conclude that just because someone learned with a backup, that their rap technique is sh*t.

Jason Kim wrote: If someone wants to learn how to rap, there comes a point where they just have to do it. It should be explained to them that they hold their life in their own hands. Giving them a fireman's as a backup is a smart decision. Installing an autoblock or other backup below their device is, IMO, also a smart decision. Why shouldn't you show someone how to use a backup if they are a beginner? Because you're afraid it will instill a false sense of security and increase the likelihood that they drop the brake? Or you're worried they will get stuck and you'll have to find a way to get them down? Please explain. Edit: just saw your other reply above. I disagree. Though I see your point about learning correct technique from the very get-go, I fall into the camp that using a backup is part of good technique, or, at least, smart technique. Thus, I think it is wise to teach beginners, from the very get-go, that a backup always be used (below the device). I really don't see any disadvantages, there are numerous advantages, and it is a logical fallacy to conclude that just because someone learned with a backup, that their rap technique is sh*t.

IMO yes it teaches newbies bad habits ... ive had to reteach folks who have been "rapping" for years how to rap properly, and newbies as well ... the common denominator is that they never rap without a prussic and learned that way ... and they get away with bad habbits

remember the prussik is a BACKUP ... your brake hand is the final and ultimate controller of your safety short of being tied off

heres an example of someone who depended on a wrongly setup backup without proper brake control ... keep BOTH hands BELOW the device, thats what you do when you lower

youtube.com/watch?v=3T4FT2S…


On Thalehaha Falls in Rubio Canyon, Altadena, CA, my buddy rigged his autoblock incorrectly. When he slipped on the mossy face, he sadly instinctively let go of the brake line. He fell 60'. It was miraculous that he walked away with nothing but deep bruises. Credit the shallow pool, slight slope of the face, landing on his butt, and the redirection the autoblock created which contributed some friction.

I actually haven't rappelled first in ages, always the leader now and checking others' rigging. But he wanted me to get pics and video of his coming down. He has done about 25 rappels total in his canyoneering career, including the 100/120' Leontine falls in the same canyon. I was concerned, I cautioned him, but he insisted. So I went down.

His mistake, as verified by still from the video, was that he didn't clip his autoblock 'biner into the leg loop. Rather it was above the leg loop. Of course it slid up and couldn't cinch the brake line.

In hindsight, a fireman's belay would have prevented this. Such is the risk of a 2 man descent and the desire to get video/pics. I don't know if I should have insisted on going last, or forgone the pics and done a fireman's belay, or done like I did and granted that a canyoneer is responsible for themselves at some point in their career.

Thankfully his ego is the most bruised of all.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62220-Rap-accident-in-Rubio-Canyon-60-fall

now i AM NOT AGAINST backups ... providing they are used as BACKUPS against inforseen circumstances ... not as crutches for poor techniques

use it all the time if you want, once you get the technique down and practiced

you would never give someone a gri gri as a substitute for proper belaying technique ... even though the gri gri might "save" you if they screw up due to it ...

why would you do the same for a prussik ... teach em the proper technique OVER and OVER again till they get it right ... give em a firemans in the meantime ... they shouldnt be doing any gnarly multipitch raps so there should always be someone to give em one

then when the basic are absolutely drilled into their head ... show em the backups

it doesnt take too long ... usually around 20-30 raps for them to build their skill and confidence

again i really dont understand why you would trust someone to belay and lower you if they cant rap properly with good brake control ...

for additional reading on the pros/cons of backups and whether above or below ... heres some good articles

storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDe…

caves.org/section/vertical/…

heres the most relevant quote ...

"safety is not given by any gadget but is the property of one's attitude and experience."


whatever you do make sure you know how and teach people how to escape from a stuck prussic if you show em how to use one ... or one of these days they might end up in this situation (which is why i suggest the mariners hitch for a prussic above the device)

youtube.com/watch?v=cYtYLJz…

;)

To the OP, how about trying a monster munter? Lot's of extra friction and much less rope twist than a regular munter.

Mark, it was discussed briefly as a way to alleviate the twists, which it does. However it doesn't change the exiting point of the rope from the hitch. Additionally, they provide so much friction that for a normal single person rappel it would be a nuisance.

Bearbreeder, I don't see how that canyoneering accident is relevant. He rigged his system wrong. That's like citing the guy who tried to rap with nothing but a shoelace. He didn't fall because of poor technique. He fell because he trusted a faulty system. Since you're equating rappelling to belaying, that's like decking because your piece blew and then blaming the belayer. Yeah a belayer can make a nice dynamic catch to try and avoid that, but at the end of the day a shit piece is a shit piece.