is it ethical to hire a fellow climber?

^^^Amen to that! And yes climbers can be super motivated to work to be able to buy new gear or go on trips. The ones who are not usually don't even get jobs. Climbers who actually get out and get jobs know exactly why they need it and are willing to go extra mile to make a good impression. They are more relaxed because their days off are spent doing something they love and not many non climbers can say that. Climbers have a lot to look forward to. If the girl starts slacking off you will be the one who can relate to her and set her straight. If she wants that job she needs to be professional . I think you will have no problem with
her especially that she is a little bit older and knows what she wants in life. Hire her!

20 kN wrote: Remember, no one has ever spent the last moments of their life wishing they worked more.

Actually, having volunteered at nursing homes for poor people in high school I can say that statement is completely false. Its cool and maybe glamorous to think you will die happy after dirtbagging it for 30 years but I will tell you that not having enough money to die in a decent home is not where you want to be. Those places suck and every resident will tell you, many are just taken there without their consent.

Go figure the house I'm in now is a block from a nursing home for the whacked and poor, its not a pretty place.

Of course a high percentage of "dirtbag" climbers are actually trustifarians waiting for the big payday.

Back to the subject- I hire climbers as often as possible, even if they have no skills they know how to give 110% usually and are not the types to BS through their days pretending to work.

MJMobes wrote: Actually, having volunteered at nursing homes for poor people in high school I can say that statement is completely false. Its cool and maybe glamorous to think you will die happy after dirtbagging it for 30 years but I will tell you that not having enough money to die in a decent home is not where you want to be. Those places suck and every resident will tell you, many are just taken there without their consent. Go figure the house I'm in now is a block from a nursing home for the whacked and poor, its not a pretty place. Of course a high percentage of "dirtbag" climbers are actually trustifarians waiting for the big payday. Back to the subject- I hire climbers as often as possible, even if they have no skills they know how to give 110% usually and are not the types to BS through their days pretending to work.

Major thread drift, but in my work I deal with a lot of nursing home residents and the families trying to fund that. Unless you are planning on making some very serious cash, you're not going to be making enough to keep yourself out of a standard-issue nursing home, so go climb your butt off.

That is why I hope I eventually get hit by a 20 foot boulder or am lucky enough to see my end coming but have enough strength to drag myself out into the woods to die and get eaten by a bear. Ending up in a nursing home or hospital seems like the ultimate hell to me.

20 kN wrote: That's not always a bad thing. Culture would have us "work hard" so we can get a good job, drive a nice car, ect ect. But today "work hard" mostly means spending 55+ hours a week sucking the man so you can get promoted from grunt to Sr. grunt. Then before you know it, 40 years pass and your entire life's accomplishments can be summed up on a single Post-It Note because all you did your entire life was slave at work. Some call that dedication, hard work and the vision of a "successful" career. I call that getting shafted, living for everyone but yourself, and wasting your life away. Those who are most "successful" are not those with the fattest job title or largest bank account, but those who spend the greatest percentage of their time doing what they truly want to do. Remember, no one has ever spent the last moments of their life wishing they worked more.

Pure gold.

M Sprague wrote:That is why I hope I eventually get hit by a 20 foot boulder or am lucky enough to see my end coming but have enough strength to drag myself out into the woods to die and get eaten by a bear. Ending up in a nursing home or hospital seems like the ultimate hell to me.

I don't know about "ultimate hell" (hard to beat the Khmer Rouge in full flower), but things can get pretty darn bad before the ol' grim reaper puts you on his to-do list, that's for sure. One of the nurses I work with suggests having your "resuscitation status" tatooed on your chest. Some would choose "DNR", but he wants his to read "LMTFA".

MJMobes wrote: Actually, having volunteered at nursing homes for poor people in high school I can say that statement is completely false. Its cool and maybe glamorous to think you will die happy after dirtbagging it for 30 years but I will tell you that not having enough money to die in a decent home is not where you want to be. Those places suck and every resident will tell you, many are just taken there without their consent. Go figure the house I'm in now is a block from a nursing home for the whacked and poor, its not a pretty place. Of course a high percentage of "dirtbag" climbers are actually trustifarians waiting for the big payday. Back to the subject- I hire climbers as often as possible, even if they have no skills they know how to give 110% usually and are not the types to BS through their days pretending to work.

I work both hospice and long term care nursing. Trust me old age and death ain't pretty no matter how much money you managed to save. Maybe kids and grand kids will pay a visit if you are lucky. You know what is pretty? A big smile in a dirt broke poor old man or a woman who had a happy life. I know it first hand.

It's been socially acceptable to hire unqualified people that you want to bang for the last couple of centuries, so, when put in prospective, I'd say simply wanting to catch some belay sis a fairly benign hiring motivation

Admittedly, they were "catching belays" too for all those years

yeah, I think I'll stay away from the low budget homes myself and take a standard issue home any day. the low budget homes seem to me to be more like hell on earth than "oh well I climbed when I was young and now everything is good". Hospice knows how to do it, everyone below them is ghetto(give me a gun now).

maybe just keeping a pistol close by is enough?

MJMobes wrote: Actually, having volunteered at nursing homes for poor people in high school I can say that statement is completely false. Its cool and maybe glamorous to think you will die happy after dirtbagging it for 30 years but I will tell you that not having enough money to die in a decent home is not where you want to be. Those places suck and every resident will tell you, many are just taken there without their consent. Go figure the house I'm in now is a block from a nursing home for the whacked and poor, its not a pretty place. Of course a high percentage of "dirtbag" climbers are actually trustifarians waiting for the big payday. Back to the subject- I hire climbers as often as possible, even if they have no skills they know how to give 110% usually and are not the types to BS through their days pretending to work.

I never said everyone should live in El Potraro Chico and work at the bar for $1 an hour while climbing on their off days. It is possible to make a reasonable living without spending your entire life at work. I have no problem with holding down a job. What I dont like to see is people who ONLY hold down a job. They get up to work at 7 AM, get home at 8 PM, and that is their entire life. Work and sleep. Work and sleep.

What is the point in even having a job if you have absolutely no time to enjoy the things you buy with your money? Your mansion remains empty all the time. Your nice Lexus is only used to drive you to work. Your $3,000 computer is only used to check e-mails and MP.com. Seems pointless.

Certainly thread drift at this point... but you know these are important issues to address, there are young people who read threads like this and it might really affect them.

In general, I am certainly of the persuasion that the work life balance must firmly fall towards more life/less work... but as someone who floated through the majority of my 20's with this attitude I am really paying the price for it now. There is absolutely no way that I could support a family, life in a space that can actually fit my outdoor gear, afford a reliable car, etc. I certainly have realigned my life in the past two years and I am on track for a real career (fortunately without having to work myself to death). But, the real moment that caused this is that a few years ago, at 29 years old, I had a bit of a mini-life-crisis when I realized that I could not afford to have a pet. I just wanted a dog, a friend, and I could not afford to live in an apartment complex that allowed them/associated deposit plus the dog food/time to walk them/etc.

Sometimes it is the simplest things like this that hit you the hardest.

I just want to make sure the young people reading this thread at least have a counterpoint to the very persuasive message of be lazier now/work more later. A lot of the people we see what have a horrible work/life balance are trying to provide for other people, or trying to build a solid foundation for a great retirement full of family and travel. It isn't about money or greed most of the time, it's about wanting their children to be able to drive to school in a car that has a 5 star safety rating. It's about sending them to college, having the money to allow them to participate in sports or clubs... etc. There is nothing wrong with this, it is honorable - it saddens me that it took me until I was 29 to realize this...

Have you found your doggy yet?

Andy P. wrote:Certainly thread drift at this point... but you know these are important issues to address, there are young people who read threads like this and it might really affect them. In general, I am certainly of the persuasion that the work life balance must firmly fall towards more life/less work... but as someone who floated through the majority of my 20's with this attitude I am really paying the price for it now. There is absolutely no way that I could support a family, life in a space that can actually fit my outdoor gear, afford a reliable car, etc. I certainly have realigned my life in the past two years and I am on track for a real career (fortunately without having to work myself to death). But, the real moment that caused this is that a few years ago, at 29 years old, I had a bit of a mini-life-crisis when I realized that I could not afford to have a pet. I just wanted a dog, a friend, and I could not afford to live in an apartment complex that allowed them/associated deposit plus the dog food/time to walk them/etc. Sometimes it is the simplest things like this that hit you the hardest. I just want to make sure the young people reading this thread at least have a counterpoint to the very persuasive message of be lazier now/work more later. A lot of the people we see what have a horrible work/life balance are trying to provide for other people, or trying to build a solid foundation for a great retirement full of family and travel. It isn't about money or greed most of the time, it's about wanting their children to be able to drive to school in a car that has a 5 star safety rating. It's about sending them to college, having the money to allow them to participate in sports or clubs... etc. There is nothing wrong with this, it is honorable - it saddens me that it took me until I was 29 to realize this...

But at the same time, if you never experienced those years you may not find it necessary to make sure your kids enjoy sports,club,etc. I live in on of the most expensive counties in the US & most people want to look "important" or "powerful" in these parts. They could careless if their kids or spouse are happy and would gladly find a replacement when gravity or age sets in on their wife/husband. This is just as bad as the dirtbags that don't want to work and regret it later. maybe you should realize that work and play are both important. Hopefully that doesn't take you until 39...

What is really sad is the people who never experience nature or any sort of adventure. The 18-25's who go on cruise ship vacation or waste all of their money inside a bar or with their face to a smartphone and never get to experience any sort of thrill or adventure.

Isn't that why you go to school? To be able to feed yourself. Maybe I'm lucky to be in healthcare... Some kind of a skill is very important to maintain a certain level of lifestyle. I remember waiting tables and working in a nursing home while going to school. I made ok money. I think it's important not to live beyond your means. US offers a lot of job opportunities not to be able to afford a dog. Are you sure you did not have a more serious problem than simply not being able to make a lot of money?

With having kids you cannot think of yourself anymore. Priorities change as they should. If or when people choose to have families it throw pretty much freedom to do what you want to the will of a chance with everything circled around kids needs. It is what it is. Nothing wrong with it. That's why I don't have kids but nothing wrong with that either.

its not what you know, but who you know.... similarities in interests have landed me jobs

20 kN wrote: But today "work hard" mostly means spending 55+ hours a week sucking the man so you can get promoted from grunt to Sr. grunt.

Yup, and further, "more hours usually does not mean more done". I try to have a strict anti-face-time policy in my team. The logic is simple - long hours means less rest, less rest means more errors, more errors means money lost. Something around 7:30am to 6pm feels optimal for me and my team, including a communal desk lunch (heck, lunch order is the most important trade of the day). Granted, if there is a crisis, I'd stay late myself and my guys/gals would too, but that could be for a week, not for a lifetime. On a regular day, if I see someone staying past my own departure, I'd always ask "WTF are you doing here at this hour?"

Andy P. wrote: A lot of the people we see what have a horrible work/life balance are trying to provide for other people, or trying to build a solid foundation for a great retirement full of family and travel. It isn't about money or greed most of the time, it's about wanting their children to be able to drive to school in a car that has a 5 star safety rating. It's about sending them to college, having the money to allow them to participate in sports or clubs... etc. There is nothing wrong with this, it is honorable -

That's a good start, but providing for your family means more than just driving a car with air bags, having a 401k and paying the electricity bill. What's likely the number one reason why married women leave faithful, non-abusive men? Because the men don't spend enough time with their families. This is part of the reason why the military is often a poor choice for someone with a family. They are so busy at working trying to support their family that they are not supporting their family. I think most children and wives would agree that being at home at night, showing up to your kid's graduation and being there for his or her prom night is far more important than driving a car with a five-star crash rating. One must strike a balance between providing for his family financially, and providing for his family physically. Too much of one often leads to not enough of the other, and you cannot trade one for the other—both are requirements.