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TRAD ETHICS

Original Post
SirTobyThe3rd M · · Salt Lake City · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 2,100

I have a question regarding ethics of trad climbing, to all you trad gurus. Here is the problem:

When a friend and I were climbing about a year ago, he led a very difficult pitch. It was his third time trying to RP the pitch and on his fourth attempt he had 3 cams above him that he lowered from. Cuz each attempt ended up lower than the previous. He took a good rest and than he send the pitch.

Would you consider it a red point or a pinkpoint?

Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80

I wouldn't call this a "trad" climb, but a gear climb personally.

Trad (to me) is a ground up ascent start to finish.

A gear climb is led with gear, but follows whatever ethic you please.

There is no definitive right answer here. It's whatever you and your partner want out of climbing. I'd call this a redpoint on gear. Not trad.

Kedron Silsbee · · El Paso · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 0

I'd call it a pink-point on gear, since pre-placed gear changes the difficulty of a climb more than pre-clipped bolts, so it seems more worth making a distinction between the two on gear climbs. If he wants to call it a redpoint I'm not going to have a conniption about it though.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
SirTobyThe3rd wrote: Would you consider it a red point or a pinkpoint?
It's technically a pink point, no ifs & buts. But if you aren't getting sponsorship from it, it really comes down to how you feel. If it those pieces were purely convenience for lowering & doesn't meaningfully change the difficulty, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. If it did, then I'd be hesitant to tell people I red pointed it.
Nate Solnit · · Bath, NH · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0

According to the internet, it's not an ethical climb unless you onsight solo it without knowing of the climb's existence before hand. But if you do that then you're a suicidal idiot who's too selfish to think about others. Which is kind of unethical. You can not win the internet. Call it whatever makes you happy. In the words of Tom Hanson via semi-rad "There's no cheating in climbing, just lying."

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

It's not a redpoint.
If you insist on one of the many irrelevant color-points, it a pink or yo-yo.
Personally I don't. I either send it OS or RP or I didn't send it yet.
That's not to say, it's not a personal best attempt. It'ss definitely not a redpoint.

What's this about gear and trad? Today they are one in the same.

Bill Wa · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 20

Hahahahahahaha! It's purple point. Definitely purple point!

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Its a Bettypoint.

Jamespio Piotrowski · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 5

All this ethics talk gives me blue balls.

I don't think how you choose to describe a climb is an ethical issue. If you lie about it, that's an ethical issue. But if you think it's a redpoint, and you call it a redpoint, that is the end of the ethical discussion. It might be the start of a linguistics or nomenclature discussion, but it ain't about ethics.

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175

Wow.

Does anyone on MP ever get laid?

Garret Nuzzo Jones · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 1,436
John Wilder wrote:redpoint, so long as he lowered and pulled the rope every time. i guess if you wanted to do a perfect redpoint you'd aid the pitch to the anchor, lower and clean your gear, then fire. But not every climber has the time or the inclination to do this for every single climb they attempt- nor should they, imho. in the grand scheme of things, its just not that big of a deal. and while some may debate the definition of 'trad,' i'd say its generally accepted by most that if you're climbing on gear, its safe to call it 'trad'
I'd generally agree with this. I belayed a friend while he worked on a mixed pitch. One gear placement on a relatively easy section of terrain. After a couple of attempts he stopped bothering to futz with the single piece of gear and just left it in, clipping it as he went up.

That kind of pinkpoint is totally valid in my book. I would've fallen asleep if he back-cleaned every single piece and draw each time.
Jonny 5 · · Squamish BC · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 1,220

Respect the style of the FA'ist. Don't add bolts. Don't chip. I think as long as the style you climb it in doesn't affect those to come after you it doesn't matter. 2 cents

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674

Redpoint, pinkpoint, bluepoint (oh, wait. Those are crabs) is all bullcrap.

Either you climbed it or you didn't. Either you rested on gear or you didn't.

You want CLIMBING (not trad, not sport, not boulder) ethics?

1) Don't screw it up for other people's access or enjoyment
2) Don't lie about what you did or did not do

The End.

phil broscovak · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2002 · Points: 1,631

Plaid point.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
James Piotrowski wrote:All this ethics talk gives me blue balls.
Yet you not only read it, you contribute to it? What do you do on weekends for fun, perv?
Eric Chabot · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 45

Style: how you choose to make an attempt/ascent of a given route.

Ethics: values on which decisions/actions are based that affect others, in this venue other climbers, land managers, other user groups, etc.

To me this is about style, not ethics. I guess it matters if your friend was establishing the route and wants to claim FA privileges so that he can start an online shitstorm when some young whippersnapper comes along and bolts his line.

But this probably only matters in the front range. Oh, and in Connecticut.

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

If you are over 50 and have a Supertopo account: hell no pussy! grow a sac and pull your cammy cams before another go.

But for the 'new' generation: sure, its like gay marriage, if ya can't beat em, join em and wear pink with Pride.

SirTobyThe3rd M · · Salt Lake City · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 2,100
David Sahalie wrote:If you are over 50 and have a Supertopo account: hell no pussy! grow a sac and pull your cammy cams before another go.
He did pull his rope after his high piece and went ground up every time. But after 3 attempts there were cams in 3 key places that he did not have to place (in key strenuous spots).
So some say it is not even trad any more? It is interesting how many opinions there are on this silly question.

How about when dudes BITD freed the route for the first time, before there were cams, and used a lot of fixed pitons on the pitch since placing the pins on lead would be nearly impossible. Were they pinkpointing than?

PS: What the hell is YOYOd? Is that something between RP and a PP?
Hank Caylor · · Livin' in the Junk! · Joined Dec 2003 · Points: 643
SirTobyThe3rd wrote: PS: What the hell is YOYOd? Is that something between RP and a PP?
A "yoyo" ascent is if your buddy had NOT pulled his rope and stayed tied in while he rested. Then when he was rested he led the climb to the top clipping whatever was above his previous high point to the anchors.

I don't think there is an actual term for what your buddy did. Sounds like he fought the good fight and then climbed to the top, which is cool because he got to get his left gear back and not post on MP asking for someone stronger to please give it back for a 6 pack, or whatever.

Here's Ron Kauk on Magic Line. Yosemites hardest crack climb? If you look close there's wires and tiny cams sticking out all the way above him. No clue what term he called this ascent.
Ron Kauk

EDIT- when you say redpoint or pinkpoint, those are sport climbing terms/phrases. Trad climbing doesn't usually use those I don't think.
Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669

trad is rad

Wilson On The Drums · · Woodbury, MN · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 940

from what i understand, pink point is when you lead a route after the draws have already been hung (sport) or if gear has been placed (trad), although i haven't heard of many people preplacing trad gear. either way i would call it a pinkpoint and since pinkpoint-ing sport routes is the new norm, and like others have said, consider it a redpoint. don't forget the best color of them all, greenpoint. youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh….

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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