Belay Question

People put it a low runner sometimes if they are looking to run back to take in the rope ... It also keeps the rope out of thr way of a fall should you run back

Sometimes a low runner is used to reduce the possibilty of a zipper

But that piece better be BOMBER against an outward pull

If it blows (yes ive seen cams zipper with enough outward pull) ... Your climber is falling farther ... And its can cause a bigger zipper

Sometimes theres reasons to belay away from the wall in trad ... Namely rockfall

But generally u wanna keep close to prevent zippers, and to prevent getting pulled in and slammed in a big fall

;)

I get pretty irked with belayers who stand too far back from the wall. Stand under the first piece of protection. Wear a helmet. Get a pair of those goofy belay specs if you have to. The only time I stand away from the climbing line is on ice, but nobody falls on ice, right?

Jon H wrote:I get pretty irked with belayers who stand too far back from the wall. Stand under the first piece of protection. Wear a helmet. Get a pair of those goofy belay specs if you have to. The only time I stand away from the climbing line is on ice, but nobody falls on ice, right?

Belaying outta the way of falling ice? You're in minority after what I saw last weekend! Hehehe..

John Farrell wrote:A good belayer doesn't need to look at the climber to belay.

This is a horrible thing to think and say. I've been climbing for over 12 years; Im a certified mountain guide; and I also work for one of the largest climbing gyms on the east coast. In other words, I've seen too many injuries. If you are outside and unable to see your climber because of the terrain, then that's another story. But it is NECESSARY for the belayer to keep their eyes on the climber for SO many reasons. Examples: rock fall and the safety of yourself and the climber, giving a dynamic catch or not, noticing if your climber is back clipping or z-clipping. There are just too many reasons why, if terrain permits it, the belayer should be watching the climber, indoor or outside. Its scary to think that there are people out there with the idealism that a good belayer does not need to watch the climber. If you've ever been given a hip-crushing hard catch before being smacked into the rock face because your belayer wasn't paying attention, then you'd agree. Sorry if I sound agro, it's just that I've seen plenty of ankles shattered when being thrown into the wall or being dropped because the belayer gave too much slack.

I've been climbing for over 12 years; Im a certified mountain guide

No offense meant here, but unless you've been 'at it' EVERY DAY for all of those years I have to wonder how/who certified you. Not trying to be a jerk, but twelve years would be an apprenticeship to becoming a 'mountain guide' in my book.

Rick Mix wrote: I've been climbing for over 12 years; Im a certified mountain guide No offense meant here, but unless you've been 'at it' EVERY DAY for all of those years I have to wonder how/who certified you. Not trying to be a jerk, but twelve years would be an apprenticeship to becoming a 'mountain guide' in my book.

Did you disagree with something he said about belaying, or did you just not like that he said he was a certified mountain guide?

I thought his comments about belaying were correct.

damienkatzmark wrote: I've seen plenty of ankles shattered

Really? Plenty of ankles?
Not disagreeing with the importance of a sound belay, but plenty? How many is plenty?
Although if it's my ankle, one is way more than plenty :-)

I'd rather have my ankle shatter (because my belay was below my first piece, and out of sight), than hit the ground cause my belay was too far back (causing a zipper).

If I saw my belay plugging gear then stepping back, I'd down climb.

ive seen folks on climbs belay their partners in bad positions just so they can "see them"

even if its sport and theres no possibility of a zipper ... theres a good chance that a lighter climber will get dragged across the ground and slammed into the wall and lose control of the belay

belaying out from the wall so you can "see em" also exposes you to more rockfall ... 2 years ago we were at the popular jupiter wall at heart creek around canmore ... we made the decision to keep close to the wall below a slight overhang and belay by feel ... once the climber got high enough it was quite hard to see them ... one of the shouted "ROCK ... LARGE FUCKING ROCK!!!" ... the rock came down and missed us (2 groups of 2) by about 10 feet or so ... if we had been standing farther out to "see our climber" we may well have been dead and our climbers too ... the rock weight over 50 lbs

also in some areas the ground isnt nicely flat and level ... theres sharp rocks and boulders on uneven ground ... ive seen belayers dragged across those and hurt themselves, especially if they are wearing flip flops

belaying by the feel of the rope and without being able to see your climber is an essential skill ... and the only way to get good at it is to practice it

now im not saying you shouldnt look up and glance at your partner if you can see em ... but there will be a point on many climbs where you cant see em ... you should discuss with your partner what to do before, or if you only notice it then, let them know

the leader needs to tell the belayer what kind of catch they want at that point

Mark E Dixon wrote: Really? Plenty of ankles? Not disagreeing with the importance of a sound belay, but plenty? How many is plenty? Although if it's my ankle, one is way more than plenty :-)

Slightly off topic, but....
I was once chatting to a guy at the base of a cliff. I asked which route he was about to do. He told me and said that he really wanted to do it as it had been the last climb he had tried, and that he had fallen off and bust an ankle.

It seemed a bit strange, getting back on the route as your first route after the accident. I also got the impression that the climb was at his grade limit. I knew the climb was difficult to protect. He got to the crux and fell off. He hit the ground and bust both ankles. External fractures. Not nice.

So, one route, one climber, three ankles.

damienkatzmark wrote: This is a horrible thing to think and say. I've been climbing for over 12 years; Im a certified mountain guide; and I also work for one of the largest climbing gyms on the east coast. In other words, I've seen too many injuries. If you are outside and unable to see your climber because of the terrain, then that's another story. .

Ridiculous. You either can belay without looking or you can't. Saying that it is only OK when you are outside makes no sense at all. It's great to be looking at your partner, especially low on the route, but after enough experience you should be giving automatically soft catches no matter what. It's like setting a hook and fishing, all feel, you don't need to see the fish to know you have a bite.

bearbreeder wrote:ive seen folks on climbs belay their partners in bad positions just so they can "see them" t

This ^

I'll take my belayer experienced, with a gri-gri, under the last placement, over a belayer who can't function without a line of site any day.

. My point is that it is NOT rediculous to expect my belayer to be watching me. Circumstances always dictate your response regarding a falling climber. There are times when a soft catch is needed and other times when it can kill a person.If my belayer doesnt watch me and I take a whipper onto a ledge or protruding flake cause I received an ill placed soft catch from an arrogant belayer who would rather focus his attention on more pressing matters, then he'd better hope I received brain damage.

As is not unusual, we're heading down the road of false dichotomies. Of course you watch the leader if you can, I don't think anyone is arguing for deliberate inattention, but choosing a stance far from the rock just so that you can watch the leader may not be the safest approach as Bearbreeder has said, especially for trad gear that can zipper as a result, but also because of greater exposure to rock fall and the potential for being moved too much by a big fall impact.

Belaying with half ropes taught me the importance of watching the ropes as much as watching the leader, since the belayer can't react as quickly to clipping motions and may get the double strand management wrong if they are only watching the leader rather than noting the tensions in the strands directly in front of them. Actually watching the ropes also means you'll keep less slack in the system---people who only watch the leader appear to me to be more prone to letting excessive slack develop, which may be ok and even an appropriate strategy for some overhanging sport climbs, but which will unnecessarily endanger the leader on many trad routes.

damienkatzmark wrote:. My point is that it is NOT rediculous to expect my belayer to be watching me. Circumstances always dictate your response regarding a falling climber. There are times when a soft catch is needed and other times when it can kill a person.If my belayer doesnt watch me and I take a whipper onto a ledge or protruding flake cause I received an ill placed soft catch from an arrogant belayer who would rather focus his attention on more pressing matters, then he'd better hope I received brain damage.

Hoping a hard catch will keep you off a ledge? Hmmm. Sounds like a fun climb.

When you climb around these dangerous "ledges" the belayer probably can't see you anyway. They won't be watching you because the very ledges that terrify you obscure the belayer's view.

So your best example of why climbers should always maintain a line of sight is actually the same reason why climbers cannot always maintain a line of site and must be competent to belay with only watching the rope.

Oh, btw, a good soft catch does not involve handfuls of slack or a long fall. That's a beginners misconception.

damienkatzmark wrote: This is a horrible thing to think and say. I've been climbing for over 12 years; Im a certified mountain guide; and I also work for one of the largest climbing gyms on the east coast. In other words, I've seen too many injuries. If you are outside and unable to see your climber because of the terrain, then that's another story. But it is NECESSARY for the belayer to keep their eyes on the climber for SO many reasons. Examples: rock fall and the safety of yourself and the climber, giving a dynamic catch or not, noticing if your climber is back clipping or z-clipping. There are just too many reasons why, if terrain permits it, the belayer should be watching the climber, indoor or outside. Its scary to think that there are people out there with the idealism that a good belayer does not need to watch the climber. If you've ever been given a hip-crushing hard catch before being smacked into the rock face because your belayer wasn't paying attention, then you'd agree. Sorry if I sound agro, it's just that I've seen plenty of ankles shattered when being thrown into the wall or being dropped because the belayer gave too much slack.

Wow... and you manage a gym. Thanks for supporting my paradigm that most gym employees are inexperienced and know little about climbing on anything other than plastic. Also, what exactly is a "certified mountain guide"? It has been my experience that most "guide certifications" are about as easy to get as a blowjob at a sorority party and hold similar value. Your post does little to change my mind about that.

I know I am being a dick, but your comments belie a serious lack of experience on climbing anything that is not a straight line of bolts. Maybe, instead of spraying and displaying your ignorance, you should read what Rgold and bearmolestor have written and try to learn something. Save the spray for when you want to impress the noobs that come into metrock.

NC Rock Climber wrote: Wow... and you manage a gym. Thanks for supporting my paradigm that most gym employees are inexperienced and know little about climbing on anything other than plastic. Also, what exactly is a "certified mountain guide"? It has been my experience that "guide certifications" are about as easy to get as a blowjob at a sorority party and hold similar value. Your post does little to change my mind about that. I know I am being a dick, but your comments belie a serious lack of experience on climbing anything that is not a straight line of bolts. Maybe, instead of spraying and displaying your ignorance, you should read what Rgold and bearmolestor have written and try to learn something. Save the spray for when you want to impress the noobs that come into metrock.

You are a dick! I wasted like 5 minutes looking for the answer to "who's bearmolestor?" Haha

So... I just got an e-mail from a friend of mine that is working towards her IFMGA Mountain Guide certification AND was in a sorority. She informed me in no uncertain terms that getting certified as a IFMGA Mountain Guide is a VERY big deal and not at all easy. She also informed me that any blow job received at a party at her sorority house would have been awesome and should not be denigrated in any way. Out of respect for my friend I want to qualify my earlier statement regarding guide certifications. More specifically, I will say that although a lot of the various professional climbing certifications are pretty worthless, being certified as an IFMGA Mountain Guide is actually a legitimate professional certification and a big deal.

There you go, E. I hope that you are no longer mad at me and that we can climb together again soon!

damienkatzmark wrote: This is a horrible thing to think and say. I've been climbing for over 12 years; Im a certified mountain guide; and I also work for one of the largest climbing gyms on the east coast. In other words, I've seen too many injuries. If you are outside and unable to see your climber because of the terrain, then that's another story. But it is NECESSARY for the belayer to keep their eyes on the climber for SO many reasons. Examples: rock fall and the safety of yourself and the climber, giving a dynamic catch or not, noticing if your climber is back clipping or z-clipping. There are just too many reasons why, if terrain permits it, the belayer should be watching the climber, indoor or outside. Its scary to think that there are people out there with the idealism that a good belayer does not need to watch the climber. If you've ever been given a hip-crushing hard catch before being smacked into the rock face because your belayer wasn't paying attention, then you'd agree. Sorry if I sound agro, it's just that I've seen plenty of ankles shattered when being thrown into the wall or being dropped because the belayer gave too much slack.

So? I am a certified climbing guide with experience, big whoop. I have seen accidents with the belayer watching the climber, sometimes all the way down to the ground too because they failed to give a proper catch. I even watched a guy with a decade of experience drop his climber by accident. I have been caught by a belayer that couldn't see me when I fell. What about climbs where the lead climber is out of site? Do you stop the leader and make them build a belay so you can constantly keep an eye on them? I teach people to belay by using both feel and and site, they need to be comfortable with feel if they can't see the climber. This is a reality for the style of climbing I prefer, maybe not yours.

Sorry if I sound agro, but it's always been my experience when people start flaunting certifications and years of experience that they should be taken with a grain of salt.

Damien is not certified mountain guide. NC rock climber does not understand the IFMGA process in this country, or others for that matter. Belaying isn't as hard as you guys think it is. Carry on.

John Farrell wrote: ...Sorry if I sound agro, but it's always been my experience when people start flaunting certifications and years of experience that they should be taken with a grain of salt.

+100

BTW, I really want to know more about Damien being a "certified mountain guide." As far as I can tell, the only "mountain guide certification" available in the US is the AMGA’s Mountain Guide Certification, also known as IFMGA Mountain Guide. There is a list of all the IFMGA guides at this page: hireaguide.amga.com/ifmga . I don't see his Damien's name there. Hmmm...