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Are there any replaceable horizontal front-point options?

Original Post
Andy P. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 190

I really dig my cyborgs because they fit my boots so well, it's annoying to me to always be switching to my G12's for alpine climbing (though they do have other advantages like the best anti-balling, etc). As y'all know, in hard neve or softer ice, horizontal front points are ideal because they spread the load across more surface area and are less likely to blow out.

Is anyone aware of maybe some-guy-in-his basement or a small company making some horizontal points I can slap onto these things - or is it just too much for me to hope that a manufacturer out there would produce a crampon that could switch between the two modes?

Yes I am aware of Petzls Saraken which features a 2-in-1 style point but I do not want to buy more 'pons and the points are not replaceable.

Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

Yeah I always thought most horizontals are fixed to the frame as one piece. Only vertical points are adjustable, from mono to dualies', or replacement points. Think the stability/strength of a horizontal off market made attachment might be an issue too.

Ryan Jennings · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 180

The CAMP USA Bladerunner crampon is the one your looking for. Quickly adjusts from vertical points (mono or dual) to mono to dual horizontal points. i'm liking the horizontal mono configuration.

coppolillo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 70

Blade Runner, bruddaman. They're pretty slick.

Andy P. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 190

Wow, that is an awesome system, the Bladerunners. I really like CAMP/Cassin's recent attitude towards product design. The X-Dream's adjustable handle angle gives you two tools in one and these blade runners can also replace several pairs of 'pons.

Too bad they aren't reasonably prices like the X-dream is.

Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78

I am so confused. You have both the G12s and the cyborgs already, and say you don't want another pair of crampons. Why then are you asking if there are another pair of crampons?

Seems to me like having both a dedicated horizontal crampon and a dedicated vertical crampon would be WAY better than having one that half-asses both.

Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78
Ryan Jennings wrote:I'm liking the horizontal mono configuration.
WHY???????? (semi rhetorical)
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
shoo wrote:I am so confused. You have both the G12s and the cyborgs already, and say you don't want another pair of crampons. Why then are you asking if there are another pair of crampons? Seems to me like having both a dedicated horizontal crampon and a dedicated vertical crampon would be WAY better than having one that half-asses both.
Is that your opinion of the Cassin Bladerunners? A crampon that half asses both? Haha.. That's a funny way of wording it.
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

Vertical frontpoints get an undeserved bad rap IMO for "neve and soft ice". I've climbed the most ridiculously thin veneer of water ice, hopelessly rotten sno-cone, and all kinds of "snice" with thin vertical monopoint crampons without any bothersome shearing-through. OK, if you're a clydesdale pushing 120+ kilo, then maybe you need more surface area on your frontpoints, but don't give up on the vertical points.

Andy P. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 190
shoo wrote:I am so confused. You have both the G12s and the cyborgs already, and say you don't want another pair of crampons. Why then are you asking if there are another pair of crampons? Seems to me like having both a dedicated horizontal crampon and a dedicated vertical crampon would be WAY better than having one that half-asses both.
I was asking about possible add on points for my cyborgs, you should read the post, man! That being said whichever pair of these pons wear out first, it's good to know what the replacement options are.
Andy P. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 190
Gunkiemike wrote:Vertical frontpoints get an undeserved bad rap IMO for "neve and soft ice". I've climbed the most ridiculously thin veneer of water ice, hopelessly rotten sno-cone, and all kinds of "snice" with thin vertical monopoint crampons without any bothersome shearing-through. OK, if you're a clydesdale pushing 120+ kilo, then maybe you need more surface area on your frontpoints, but don't give up on the vertical points.
My experience has been quite the opposite, not catastrophically so but I notice a difference. If you ever have the chance, doing a side-by-side is enlightening. I used to teach intro to mountaineering classes and we would demo all types of crampons, letting the students etc put them on and figure out what works for them. It is true I think the lighter people did not have as noticeable a difference, though I wasn't paying much attention.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

I'm not aware of an aftermarket horizontal point for Cyborgs or Stingers. I have no idea how well the Bladerunners perform but they are cost prohibitive. For $350 I can buy three or four pairs of minimally used crampons.

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264

I don't understand - are you looking into swapping your frontpoints in the field? I don't think that it would be quite logistically feasible.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Ray Pinpillage wrote:I'm not aware of an aftermarket horizontal point for Cyborgs or Stingers. I have no idea how well the Bladerunners perform but they are cost prohibitive. For $350 I can buy three or four pairs of minimally used crampons.
You could but those three or four crampons won't climb thin and/or chandeliered ice as well as the Bladerunners. I've used the Bladerunners about 30 days and the only problem I've found is they don't fit every boot. I've talked to some others that had the same issue. Guys who own Bladerunners have said they're worth every penny. I have heard a couple bad reviews which was surprisingly but those people are a small minority.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Kirby1013 wrote: You could but those three or four crampons won't climb thin and/or chandeliered ice as well as the Bladerunners. I've used the Bladerunners about 30 days and the only problem I've found is they don't fit every boot. I've talked to some others that had the same issue. Guys who own Bladerunners have said they're worth every penny. I have heard a couple bad reviews which was surprisingly but those people are a small minority.
Are you saying that Bladerunners finally helped you get that WI7 clean you had struggled with? I assume so cause there really aren't any crampons made today that climb better than what was available 10 years ago. Your statement more or less says that Bladerunner crampons are an evolutionary step forward in crampon design that antiquates currently available crampons.

For what its worth I bought Dartwins, Vasaks, G20's, and the last version of the CAMP C12 for less than $350 total.

I like the idea of replaceable front points only from a serviceability standpoint. Short of an expedition, changing front points in the field is unrealistic.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Haha.. WI7.. I like what you did there. The WI rating system there must be different than here. There's plenty of thin 3s that the Bladerunners shine on. But yes I'm saying the Bladerunners have a better design. I took one Stinger on one foot and one Bladerunner on another and went up a chandeliered 5 and again a month later on a thin 4+. The foot with the Bladerunner felt most secure and didn't blow out once. I'm telling you I've experienced and that others have confirmed it. I'm not assuming anything. This reminds me of reporting what I found with the X Dreams last year only to hear negative comments for those who never swung them. Lots of people changed their minds once they tried the Dreams. Some think Bladerunners are a waste of money and I respect their opinion. Heck, I'm always interested in diferent point of view from someone who's experienced what they're talking about.

You must have been still chopping steps in 1972 because no way could those new crampons that guy Chouinard made in 69 be any better than any crampon from the last ten years. Before you pick this apart I'm just saying better designs do get invented.

Interchangeable points are also good for people that don't wanna spend $350 for one set of pons much less two.

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
Kirby1013 wrote: Haha.. WI7.. I like what you did there. The WI rating system there must be different than here. There's plenty of thin 3s that the Bladerunners shine on. But yes I'm saying the Bladerunners have a better design. I took one Stinger on one foot and one Bladerunner on another and went up a chandeliered 5 and again a month later on a thin 4+. The foot with the Bladerunner felt most secure and didn't blow out once. I'm telling you I've experienced and that others have confirmed it. I'm not assuming anything. This reminds me of reporting what I found with the X Dreams last year only to hear negative comments for those who never swung them. Lots of people changed their minds once they tried the Dreams. Some think Bladerunners are a waste of money and I respect their opinion. Heck, I'm always interested in diferent point of view from someone who's experienced what they're talking about. You must have been still chopping steps in 1972 because no way could those new crampons that guy Chouinard made in 69 be any better than any crampon from the last ten years. Before you pick this apart I'm just saying better designs do get invented. Interchangeable points are also good for people that don't wanna spend $350 for one set of pons much less two.
I'm not sure you understand how WI ratings work...

I think Ray said past 10 years not 45. I think I agree with Ray, I don't see anything revolutionary in the geometry of Bladerunners. What you experienced with Stinger vs. Bladerunners may possibly be due to the distance between the ends of the front point and secondary points. Your Stinger frontpoint maybe sticking out farther, thus making your secondary points useless, hence the insecurity on ice.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Kirby1013 wrote: There's plenty of thin 3s that the Bladerunners shine on.
From your lips to god's ears.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
doligo wrote: I'm not sure that you understand how WI ratings work...

I'm not the one who says all thin ice has a WI7 rating. Maybe things are rated differently in different areas. I think we can all agree rock grades vary place to place.

I said better designs get invented. Doesn't matter when it happened. I am however sure in 1970 the same discussion was happening among people. My old crampons are just fine.. Those Chouinards pons can't be that much better..

You think you agree with Ray? Is that due to the fact you don't have any time on the Bladerunners like Ray? Again always interested in another perspective if you have more than speculation.

Thanks for the advice on setting up the Stingers. That's precisely what I feel makes the Bladerunners better over the Stingers is the secondary point design. I do understand the need to setup the front bail correctly to get all points to contact the ice. Setting the boot too far forward would cover up the other points next to the mono. The result insecurity. Believe me I've tried it all due to the fact I thought the person telling me how great the Bladerunners was bias. I tried everything to prove him wrong.

Ray, I keep praying for open minds.. Some things will never change.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Kirby1013 wrote:I'm not the one who says all thin ice has a WI7 rating.
Nor did anyone else. WI3 is WI3, "thin" or not. Any modern crampon will climb WI3 or WI4. Needing additional security on "thin" WI3 says more about you than the crampon.

Kirby1013 wrote:Ray, I keep praying for open minds.. Some things will never change.
I keep praying for reading comprehension, it doesn't seem like Jesus is listening to either one of us.
Ryan Jennings · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 180

Hilarious the horse shit that gets slung around here. Reminds me of some bitched out married couple arguing just for the sake of arguing.

I'm with Kirby in that the Bladerunner is a revolutionary setup. No, I can't even get the company to give me a deal so I'm not bias. Yeah they're expensive but we figure that shit out don't we so cost aside, I've climbed in a shit ton of crampons of different design and the Bladerunner is a step up in the game. The rigidity of them, the way they lock in on the boot sole, their ease of adjustment and the front point configuration options are all different than anything we seen yet. The removable/interchangeable flat and vertical points are certainly cool and worth a look at.

A good climber can climb WI whatever in dual or mono points. It doesn't matter and many of the best will tell you they climb everything in one or the other. The only reason to have a pair of duals is to save your calves in the alpine. As firm ice/rock surfaces become softer monos cause you to lift your heal as the front point feels less secure and you get scared. Monos, however, climb delicate ice and mixed with far better accuracy. Alpine routes are what we are talking about here, otherwise you should just be wearing monos in my opinion.

Changing points in the field is valuable on a big mountain. I agree it's uniqueness is realistically only legit on a big route/expedition but…... Think of a route where you climb steep Neve for a day in dual flat points then bivi, eat your wheaties, switch to a mono point for the next days 15 hard mixed pitches, bivi again, switch back to dual flats, puff down and proceed to crush the summit snowfields the final day! Your calves would thank you and the extra weight of the two points and allen would be worth the minimal weight. No worries if you drop one, you have options.

If your afraid of weight like me or can't wrap your head around changing in the field, you like mono points but have chosen a route as described above and would like to save some calves, try putting one of the Bladerunner flat points in the mono point position. Now you have more surface area but still can climb mixed/delicate ice with only a mono point to deal with (albeit horizontal). This setup and the stiffness of the Bladerunner alone will save calve strength compared to other options on the alpine ice and, at the same time, still be superior to a full dual setup on the serious ice/mixed.

I've climbed in the Bladerunners with various configurations and will be testing them out in AK soon. I was recently in the Stingers and before that in the Cyborgs. Foot fangs and Rambos are those that had similar stiffness but in a completely different/heavier/less compact design. The BD mono points are a step ahead from previous design in that they utilize a bit of flat space but the Bladerunners take it to a new level having full width replaceable flat points that can go in any position desired.

The girlfriend spat you've got going is not for me but I'm so impressed with this crampon it seemed worth discussing.

On another note, I still wonder how the hell we got to WI7? What happened to ice not being able to get any harder than WI5+? The shit only gets so steep and so thin and your always pulling on the same jug. I climbed some shit they called WI6 once or twice but it was just WI5+ on shitty ice that wouldn't take pro. Just cuz I'm shittin myself more doesn't mean we need a new grade for it…..WTF!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Ice Climbing
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