Belaying the second in a "mock" multi-pitch climb: how to

So my friend and I are new to climbing. We have not begun trad but have been sport climbing for the past two months. We are quite ambitious and want to tackle a multi pitch sport climb. But I told my friend that we should practice our rope technique for a few months before we do that. We had the idea of climbing single pitch sports at our level and having the lead belay the second up to the anchor (as would be necesary in a multi pitch climb hence the "mock") and then we both repel down from there. 3 questions: 1) is that a stupid idea, because I haven't heard of anyone else doing it. 2) what kind of equipment do we need to set up belay anchors, (I already have tons of 1 inch nylon tubular webbing, 6 quickdraws, atc, grigri, three locking beaners and one pearbeaner). 3) how do we setup an anchored belay from the top of the pitch (examples of the belayer standing/sitting on a ledge above or below the master point as well as the belayer hanging below the master point are what I'm looking for) be very specific in your explanation please

Mike,

Practicing belaying the second from above is a good idea, but trying to figure how to do it over the Internet is a bad idea.

Find an experienced climber, a mentor, or hire a guide, to show you how to set up the anchor and belay from above.

This is a fairly decent video on explaining the procedure, but yeah I'd seek an experienced climber to teach you.

http://vimeo.com/33940152

Not a bad idea at all, I've belayed followers up single pitch climbs for any number of reasons, including a view that beat the view from the bottom. I'll echo what the others said, do some research, Freedom of the Hills, Long's anchors book, and maybe a more experienced buddy to show you howo to build an anchor. It's not rocket science, but it is your life line. Personally, on two good bolts, I like to anchor with the rope or a sliding x (some terms to start with). You have plenty of gear.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by how you set them up. When I'm bringing up a second, I almost always belay off the anchor, whether I'm sitting or standing. Typically I don't like the anchor to be lower than my waist (if belaying off a tree or boulder this can be trickey) as it makes pulling slack difficult. Sitting vs. standing is driven by the ledge, although sitting in crampons beats standing in crampons.

Everything you need to know is here and very specific: amazon.com/Traditional-Lead…

PatCleary wrote:Freedom of the Hills, Long's anchors book, and maybe a more experienced buddy to show you howo to build an anchor. It's not rocket science, but it is your life line. Personally, on two good bolts, I like to anchor with the rope or a sliding x (some terms to start with). You have plenty of gear. I'm not completely sure what you mean by how you set them up.

Thanks, i have freedom of the hills and i love it. from it actually im pretty familiar with anchor building (equallettes, cordulettes, sliding x, etc..). i guess wasnt clear on what i was asking. im comfortable with anchors but what i wasnt sure was where the belay device was to be attached, to the belayer or to the anchor. that video helped a lot @victoriabc, thanks. however i have some follow up questions after that video. can i attach my grigri directly to the anchor bolts (or any anchor that is not being used to support my own body weight) on a multi pitch sport climb? does it matter if i am above or below the belay device where ever it is attached as long as im comfortable with it, and are there any rules i should follow (other than rope dragging on the lip) if the master point and belay device are above a ledge and my belay device is anchored to a tree?

I would recommend getting yourself a guide type belay device such as the Petzl Reverso 4 because you can also use this to rappel. Next step is to learn how to use it for belaying a second. As far as setting everything up. Things will work better if things are above/in front/ or otherwise behind you. I usually just build an anchor, clip into the masterpoint and then also belay off the master point. This is called a direct belay. I would also recommend seeking out expert knowledge first person. or at the very least practicing everything very close to the ground in a gym, or a garage, or a tree. Also be sure to manage your rope well while belaying and realize you may not be able to see or hearyour climber from the top of the pitch.

Joe "Big Boi" Osterman wrote: Next step is to learn how to use it for belaying a second. As far as setting everything up. Things will work better if things are above/in front/ or otherwise behind you. I usually just build an anchor, clip into the masterpoint and then also belay off the master point. This is called a direct belay.

I've seen folks belay off a master point, as you sugtgest, as well as belaying off the "shelf" or above the figure 8 that creates your master point, as is shown in that video. Clipping above the figure 8 always seemed wrong to me, but couldn't say why. Anybody think it matters?

James Piotrowski wrote: I've seen folks belay off a master point, as you sugtgest, as well as belaying off the "shelf" or above the figure 8 that creates your master point, as is shown in that video. Clipping above the figure 8 always seemed wrong to me, but couldn't say why. Anybody think it matters?

Clipping into the "shelf" is fine, but clip it across both strands for redundancy, and keep a biner in the masterpoint to prevent the unlikely "rolling" (undoing) of the Figure 8 masterpoint.

Mikeybarro wrote:So my friend and I are new to climbing. We have not begun trad but have been sport climbing for the past two months. We are quite ambitious and want to tackle a multi pitch sport climb. But I told my friend that we should practice our rope technique for a few months before we do that. We had the idea of climbing single pitch sports at our level and having the lead belay the second up to the anchor (as would be necesary in a multi pitch climb hence the "mock") and then we both repel down from there. 3 questions: 1) is that a stupid idea, because I haven't heard of anyone else doing it. 2) what kind of equipment do we need to set up belay anchors, (I already have tons of 1 inch nylon tubular webbing, 6 quickdraws, atc, grigri, three locking beaners and one pearbeaner). 3) how do we setup an anchored belay from the top of the pitch (examples of the belayer standing/sitting on a ledge above or below the master point as well as the belayer hanging below the master point are what I'm looking for) be very specific in your explanation please

Have a look at some of the photos in the gear and belay chapters on multipitchclimbing.com/

Mikeybarro wrote: Can i attach my grigri directly to the anchor bolts (or any anchor that is not being used to support my own body weight) on a multi pitch sport climb? does it matter if i am above or below the belay device where ever it is attached as long as im comfortable with it, and are there any rules i should follow (other than rope dragging on the lip) if the master point and belay device are above a ledge and my belay device is anchored to a tree?

If you're building an anchor with a master point and belaying off the anchor, you and the device should both be clipped to the master point.

If you're belaying directly off the anchor's master point (as opposed to belaying off your harness) you'll definitely want to be below, or staring at, the master point/belay device. It's significantly harder to pull in slack through the device if it's below you.

Very good idea to practice on single pitch.

Before you go multipitch. Get the anchors book, read it, live it, and practice building anchors on the ground, preferably with a mentor to give advice.

Also, a very good idea to know how to 'escape the belay', ascend a tensioned rope, and stabilize and lower an injured partner. Not essential, but highly recommended. I first learned the technique to use multipitch sport climbing at Potreo.

If it's a two bolt anchor, go with a pre rigged "quad" setup. Done properly it can provide 2 self equalizing power points, limited extension, and full redundancy. Tie yourself to the outer PP, and belay off of the inner PP. If that makes no sense, just hang one from some rafters, a closed door, or whatever and play with it until it does. Just be sure to keep everything neat, clean, and visible. Practice on the ground until you've got it dialed, and be safe.
-Mackley

I completely understand what the OP is asking and its funny because I don't understand the answers either. It makes sense for someone who has been there, but I think what he is asking is simpler than what is being answered.

Ok, here let me rephrase the question

1 - I get to the the top of a sport climb. There are two bolts there and I want to bring my buddy up

2 - How do I do this? specifically in terms of the correct angle etc.. of my ATC and rope and biner. .

say I have
ATC
Locking biner
two quickdraws or a quad as the anchor
PAS
rope from my asecent
two solid anchor bolts

what order do I put all these together?

Thanks for your replies

Neyma wrote:I completely understand what the OP is asking and its funny because I don't understand the answers either. It makes sense for someone who has been there, but I think what he is asking is simpler than what is being answered. Ok, here let me rephrase the question 1 - I get to the the top of a sport climb. There are two bolts there and I want to bring my buddy up 2 - How do I do this? specifically in terms of the correct angle etc.. of my ATC and rope and biner. . say I have ATC Locking biner two quickdraws or a quad as the anchor PAS rope from my asecent two solid anchor bolts what order do I put all these together? Thanks for your replies

You hire a guide, or find a mentor.

The people here aren't being jerks man - it's just not safe for you to figure this out from internet comments. Get a guide, ask for help and trade it for beer on MP... anything to not have to put someone else's life at risk because you refused to be mentored. Just because you can lead a climb does NOT mean you're competent to do what you're asking about.

If you're using a guide ask yourself: if my follower needs to be lowered how can I do that? You might think you can just put a biner in the nose of the ATC guide and lower them like that... but what actually happens is you have no control and can cause an accident.

What concerns me is that you should know that you need to build an anchor with a masterpoint to belay from instead of using 2 QDs... the questions suggest that you should really hire someone to teach you. Not trying to be a dick here...

Case in point - saw a bunch of guys that were brand new to ice climbing but 'experienced' rock climbers join shitloads of different diameter ropes/webbing/everything into a clusterfucked anchor while trying to climb a detached pillar on a 34 degree day using crampons they 'strapped' to hiking boots and a pair of Grivel X Blades 'because they were cheap' while knocking down 10-20 pound chunkds of ice onto the belayer who WASN'T wearing a helmet. Short story... the trip 'leader' put his party and every other party at that ice crag at risk because he simply did not know the mistakes he was making.

IF you don't learn from someone that knows the right way to do things you will be making inadvertent mistakes and putting other people at risk, and like the accident at the Gunks last summer people do die.

Neyma wrote:I completely understand what the OP is asking and its funny because I don't understand the answers either. It makes sense for someone who has been there, but I think what he is asking is simpler than what is being answered. Ok, here let me rephrase the question 1 - I get to the the top of a sport climb. There are two bolts there and I want to bring my buddy up 2 - How do I do this? specifically in terms of the correct angle etc.. of my ATC and rope and biner. . say I have ATC Locking biner two quickdraws or a quad as the anchor PAS rope from my asecent two solid anchor bolts what order do I put all these together? Thanks for your replies

1) Bring a 48" sling or similar loop of cord for the anchor.
2) Clip the sling to both bolts (with extra draws or just spare biners).
3) Tie a sliding-X knot or a figure-8 on a bight with the sling/cord between the two bolts. This creates your "master point". Note the lack of redundancy with the sliding-x if that bothers you.
4) Clip a locker to the masterpoint, then attach yourself to the masterpoint by clove hitching your climbing rope into it (and/or using your PAS if you brought one).
5) Clip a locker to the masterpoint, or the "shelf" above the masterpoint and attach your guide-mode belay device here.

You should be below the masterpoint, and ideally leaning/hanging on the anchor so as to eliminate any slack in the system. Realistically though, if they're bomber bolts, you aren't gonna die.

1. Build anchor (clip quad to bolts)
2. Tie yourself to said anchor via clove hitch (front PP on a quad, shelf on anything else).
3. Pull up slack
4. Load belay device
A. Clip plaquette (ATC GUIDE, Reverso, gri gri, etc) to anchor ( rear PP on a quad, true PP on anything else).
OR
B. Clip belay device to your belay loop, and redirect off the anchor (rear PP on a quad, this is dependent otherwise).
5. Double and triple check EVERYTHING!
6. On Belay!
If you have it dialed, this should take less than a min. ( no matter what two bolt anchor you choose) with the pulling of slack probably taking the longest.
Practice, with your partner, on the ground. And have fun with it. TIP: 100' of hardware store rope can make 4 good practice ropes. Just don't leave the front porch, garage etc. ( or the ground for that matter).
-Mackley
Edit: I learned by reading then doing, but I also have been rescued while playing the same game you are looking into. It would be much better to experience first with a guide or mentor, than have to learn self rescue skils on the fly from a single pitch anchor. Embarrassing at best fatal at worst.

Few things to note,

1) Good to hear you know anchor set up, practice that a lot, there are many ways to rig SERNE anchors on two bomber bolts, everyone has an opioin for redundancy and efficiency (a sliding x is not redundent and does not pass NE)and depending on situations some are better than others

2) You cannot belay directly off and anchors masterpoint with a normal ATC, you must have a guide style device, gri-gri(still not sure if this is recommended to bring up a second but i've done it many times no problem) or run the rope up through a higher point to create a top rope.

3) Practice near the ground, you will quickly realize when on the rock that there is much more involved in a multi-pitch climb than just bringing up the 2nd. What are you doing with rope? Who is leading next pitch? Which side should the follower come up to the anchor at depending on who is leading next pitch? how do you switch belay for next pitch? Have this stuff as second nature and you will be safe and save a ton of time

4) Learn some self rescue if you are climbing multi-pitch.

5) A lot of these things are very situation dependent, go bug some more experienced climbers to take you out and ask questions and watch very closely every little thing has a reason.

Good luck, be safe, get after it.

Also, when picking a single pitch sport route to practice on. Look for one where you climb to a ledge or a very good stance. This is more typical of multipitch routes, and hanging belays can become tiresome also they are less forgiving should any mistake be made.

Medic741 wrote:The people here aren't being jerks man - it's just not safe for you to figure this out from internet comments. Get a guide, ask for help and trade it for beer on MP... anything to not have to put someone else's life at risk because you refused to be mentored. Just because you can lead a climb does NOT mean you're competent to do what you're asking about. If you're using a guide ask yourself: if my follower needs to be lowered how can I do that? You might think you can just put a biner in the nose of the ATC guide and lower them like that... but what actually happens is you have no control and can cause an accident. What concerns me is that you should know that you need to build an anchor with a masterpoint to belay from instead of using 2 QDs... the questions suggest that you should really hire someone to teach you. Not trying to be a dick here... Case in point - saw a bunch of guys that were brand new to ice climbing but 'experienced' rock climbers join shitloads of different diameter ropes/webbing/everything into a clusterfucked anchor while trying to climb a detached pillar on a 34 degree day using crampons they 'strapped' to hiking boots and a pair of Grivel X Blades 'because they were cheap' while knocking down 10-20 pound chunkds of ice onto the belayer who WASN'T wearing a helmet. Short story... the trip 'leader' put his party and every other party at that ice crag at risk because he simply did not know the mistakes he was making. IF you don't learn from someone that knows the right way to do things you will be making inadvertent mistakes and putting other people at risk, and like the accident at the Gunks last summer people do die.

I do not think people were being jerks at all, they just were taking for granted steps and terms that a newbie may not already know..

as for the "hire a guide argument" well. . yes and yes, agreed. But.. well does that mean we dont ask. we dont talk about it. All information is good information. Fools will be fools regardless.

So i am with you, but have some perspective as well.

And thank you everybody else for the constructive replies. I have a pretty good vision on what to do now and will practice in my backyard and then with someone who knows what they are doing.

Peace.