Ego and climbing ability-tied together. . .

Once I stopped the "climbing is my life" nonsense, I became much hapier and began climbing much harder.

I wrote about some of this on NEice last year and ended up with quite the troll.

I definitely feel the same way you do some days on ice. I'm too fat to be a good rock climber so decimal grades don't bother me much. I almost killed myself a couple weeks ago and got pretty down on myself. I remembered what a friend said about drag racing and felt that was true of climbing that day. He said racing's the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. My attitude was due to not performing at a certain grade. I had a great day now that I'm not feeling sorry for myself. I met a bunch of super fun people to climb with. I got to laugh at dumb ass and unsafe climbers. But then i thought that day.. I'm not a climber. I get satisfaction from my work and my family. I know what I'm good at and it's not climbing. I accept that. But that's me. If I had a life that revolved around climbing I would imagine the pressure would be unbearable to perform at a high level. But at least in my mind I could call myself a climber.

I'm in agreement with camp 4

Nobody gives a shit how hard you climb!

Chasing grades for self-esteem amounts to nothing more then silly adolescent dick measuring

Personally. I chase great locations to climb , the grade to me is simply a barometer that lets me know the style I'm going to use to get up the damn thing. Free , French free, aid
Ice or a combo of everything.

If something is hard enough that I feel I can't just get my ass off the couch n climb it , I'll
Find a better way to the top.

DoesNotCare,

Everything thing is an object to the mind, even the self. The self is an object with a name(your name) and a story(your life). The mind created self is also refered to as the egoic self but this is not the common use of the term ego. The egoic self is not real, it is created in the mind. Your name and life story are not your true identity, they are only labels that the mind uses. Self-esteem is link to the egoic self. In other words, self esteem is connected to an illusion of ones self which means that self esteem is not real either.

Christianity is a religous institution based on a spiritual teaching. Religous institutions have nothing of great value to offer but the teachings are fundamentally important to the human experience.

You can to discover your true identity which nameless and timeless. Self esteem is no longer needed when you have a true identity because your true self is connected to the entire universal source. A source far beyond what can be known by humans. This can change your entire life.

MC Poopypants wrote: You can to discover your true identity which nameless and timeless. Self esteem is no longer needed when you have a true identity because your true self is connected to the entire universal source. A source far beyond what can be known by humans. This can change your entire life.

Beautiful! Getting to KNOW your true self is all anyone ever needs to do, BUT rarely does! The ego fights hard to not be figured out...

Everything WILL "fall into place" if one is within and not without. When you know your center, you understand/know the universe and all static (worry, anxiety, etc) disappears as you become one with the WHOLE.

to the OP: go explore your internal universe more!!!!

Self-esteem is a great concept for selling vast quantities of pop psychology books.

For understanding something as complex as human emotion and behavior, not so much.

JCM wrote: My advice is to diversify your life and to diversify your climbing.

Not a bad advice, but I don't think it's a complete solution. You can diversify, but if your problem is measuring your self-worth based on your accomplishment, you will one day find that there are people who are just better at this "life" thing than you, in every aspect you may care about: climbing (in all forms), education, career, family, money, etc. There has to be some measure of content.

For someone whose SN is DoesNotCare, it seems you care a little too much :)

I noticed that when I was getting into climbing I was scared before any 5.6 or 5.7 lead. Than 5.8. Back than I thought if I could lead consistent 5.9 I would be set for life since there are so many cool 5.9s. Now that I usually onsight 5.10s and at times low 5.11s, I think if I could be well rounded 5.11 climber and lead some 5.12s that it would be incredible. But than what if I can do that in a year? I bet I will start looking to 5.13 and so on. Is it my ego driving me? Or is it natural for a human to want to be able to do something he/she can't at the moment? It might be a mix. But it certainly feels good to climb no worse than your peers and push your limits by improving. It could be unhealthy if you feel depressed or sad because you are coming up short to meet your expectations. But as long as you are having fun pushing your limits and don't feel like YOU HAVE to send to be happy, I think it is totally normal.

Hope 2014 brings lots of sending to everyone!

I like reboot's comment: for almost all of us, there are others who are better at everything we care about.
Now when you can identify one particular person who is better than you at everything, that can be a little galling, but that's life.

When I "do my best" at something, I'm pretty happy with the results, even if the outcome isn't that I'm the best or even close to it. But maybe not everyone's wired that way, and if your goal really is to "win" rather than to be happy, then my little philosophy won't be of much help.

pfwein wrote:I like reboot's comment: for almost all of us, there are others who are better at everything we care about. Now when you can identify one particular person who is better than you at everything, that can be a little galling, but that's life. When I "do my best" at something, I'm pretty happy with the results, even if the outcome isn't that I'm the best or even close to it. But maybe not everyone's wired that way, and if your goal really is to "win" rather than to be happy, then my little philosophy won't be of much help.

The intensity of the experience of climbing at your limit doesn't change with difficulty, but the aesthetic beauty of the routes generally increases with difficulty.

there are plenty of places out there, where the harder you climb, the more stuff you can get up

for example to free climb the entire squamish chief, theres one 5.9 route, the majority of the rest as 10s, 11s, and 12s ... (im not counting europa which throws rocks down on people all the time)

so if you want to free climb the entire thing and not on the traffic jam easy route, you better be a solid 5.10 trad climber ... you want a margin of error to get up in decent time and safety

now if you ego is driving you to do a certain climb theres nothing wrong with that at all

besides the harder you climb, generally the less crowded the routes you want to jump on will be

IMO climbing hard as you personally can is important ... this can be mental hardness on sketchy climbs, or the hardest moves on sport

i simply cant stand people who cant push themselves ... the grade itself doesnt matter a huge ton in my partners, but the unwillingness to give it everything does

that said, everyone climbs for their own reasons ... hell some people think that all they want out of climbing is some easy top ropes ...

and of course those telling you that climbing for your ego is bad .... are of the same type that will tell you that climbing simply to have fun and not push yourself is bad ...

as long as youre not hurting anyone, what you do is up to you

that being said if you want to climb as HARD as you ever have ... get a whole bunch of cute hawties at the base screaming your name

;)

prana.com/life/2014/02/28/a…

No one cares about your climbing abilities. In fact, only a handful of people in life even give a damn about your existence. That's just the reality of life. So, forget worrying about all that nonsense. Now if you are pushing yourself for your own personal goals that is fine. If you care about what other climbers think of you then you will always be disappointed. Either be confident or don't. You'll either fail on a climb simply because you fell while giving it your all or because you wussed out. A lack of confidence leads to the second option. If there is a time to let your self esteem be affected by climbing, it is when you do the second option. But you can easily fix that by going back and giving it your all.

It seems like an obvious concept, but I never really thought about it in a clear way until I read Dave Macleod's book: You're gonna hobble your improvement as a climber if you don't learn to be more comfortable failing in front of others. And that goes for pretty much any skill in life, physical or intellectual.

Change your focus from trying to appear to be smart to actually becoming smart, from impressing people to actually learning.

Get on lots of different routes, get on routes when you're tired and will probably fail miserably in front of the hot chick at the crag, ask lots of questions even if they make you sound dumb, etc, etc, etc..

I've struggled with this a lot.

In the last three years, I have gone from sending a 13c and getting regular about 13a down to being unable to finish 11's I'd done years ago and back up to the low to mid 12 level. Given the turns of my life, I don't expect get back into 13's anytime soon.

I have to admit, I will be somewhat dissatisfied if I never get back to that level but who knows if climbing will even be a priority when I have that kind of time again.

For me anymore, I enjoy the people (minus the gumby crowds), the effort, pushing myself, and getting outside. I can do that without posting up regular improvement. Now that I'm stagnant again and not getting worse anymore, I can live with that for now.

DoesNotCare wrote:Maybe my self esteem is more related to how other climbers treat me when I'm working a 5.12 compared to hanging my way up 5.11??? I feel like I try to go out of my way to treat all climbers the same-no matter how they climb. I don't really feel like many other climbers are like that. . .

I'm not usually out with anybody I know except my partner, so I can't really empathize with you on what you feel like others may be thinking of you, but I agree with what plenty of others here have already said about this: Nobody else gives a crap about your climbing ability. I want my climbing partner to push herself so that I can feel a little more justified in hanging out on routes that are too hard for me to onsight, but as to her success on said routes, I couldn't care unless it means I get to climb again sooner. And I KNOW that's how she feels about me projecting. I get practically zero support in projecting routes, which makes it practically impossible for me to project something significantly more difficult than my onsight limit (ie. my max).

Just keep pushing it and trying to have fun, regardless of what you're working on. JCB has some good advice with diversifying which you can try. I'm personally not interested in that, but have plenty of friends who do exactly that. Of course, they stagnate in their climbing ability. Certainly, this affects next to nothing, as others have noted that there are tons of 5.8s, 9s and 10s out there. For me though, I have my long-term goal of a certain 5.13c Master of Desaster which was really inspiring for me. I'm struggling towards it (without having laid a finger on it for the past two years - not that I have a chance anyway of sending) and finding quite a bit of pleasure in the milestones working towards this goal. I chose this route as a goal before I could even climb 5.12, so dream big and then you can find pleasure in seeing that you're making progress towards your main goal, even if your main goal is still miles away.

TL:DR the whole thread.

If your self-esteem is tied to SUCCESSFULLY climbing harder grades, or successfully doing anything else, then you are doomed to misery. You WILL grow old, and the day will come that you simply cannot climb what you used to be able to climb.

I was at a very crowded out of town crag recently, and my teenage kids were killing it, just having a great day, they had it dialed. I had climbed several routes on TR, led one sport pitch, was hvaing a good day for me in my middle ages. My kid looks at me and says "You should have a go at this." I had a doubtful look on my face, the guidebook put it a full point above what I've even been attempting lately, and I said, "Yeah, that's what I need, to hang all over this thing in front of an audience." The kid looks at me and says "Go ahead, you'll never see these people again." I had just been schooled by a teenager in the necessity of putting ego and reputation aside in order to just do somethign that looked like a lot of fun.

So I tied in and started up. I had a blast. I fell twice, and my son caught both falls beautifully. After the second fall, I hung on the rope for a while taking a rest. I literally flailed through the crux, throwing my arms up and over the sloper hold, trying to create as much contact between rock and skin (including arms and even my fat belly, which finally came in handy for something) as possible, and then kind of squirming my way up the next six inches on skinny feet and pure belly friction till I could reach a crimpy groove.

In other words, it was the ugliest climbing you've seen. And afterwards, I felt GREAT. Not because I sent it, I didn't. But because I TRIED. I tried to climb something beyond my skills. I failed. And I felt GREAT about that failure. And thanks to modern equipment, I was able to fail at no real risk.

Your mileage may vary. But the next time you see a middle aged fat dude flailing around, hangdogging, and letting his belayer give him that little boost he needs to reach the next bolt, laugh at me all you want, cuz that's exactly what I'm doing, and I'm pretty sure I'm having even more fun than you are. I'm definitely having more fun than anybody whose self-esteem is dependent on what they can send.

Grades do matter, at least for people who are serious sport climbers. By "sport climber" I refer to the definition put forth by the Anderson brothers, those climbers who treat climbing as a physical and athletic endeavor and train to increase strength, endurance, etc., in a systematic way to improve performance. To these people, myself included, sending a harder grade is a measure by which one can evaluate his or her progress. Of course self esteem and feelings of satisfaction are going to be tied up with performance in this sort of scenario. Just like a runner who completes his fastest half marathon or even a golfer who shoots her first par round, a climber who does their hardest route to date will be elated and their self worth will be high. And of course the opposite is true when one's performance is not up to par.

I do not see anything wrong with this approach to climbing. It means that there will be highs and lows in terms of motivation and self esteem, but that sounds a lot like like life in general. You have to embrace and love the process, just like with anything that is challenging but ultimately satisfying. Also, I personally believe that routes get more fun as they get harder, i.e. a 3 star 5.13 is better than a 3 star 5.11 because the sequences and complexity of the route are more intriguing. Therefore I enjoy climbing harder routes and get more satisfaction from them.

Climbing is a complex and widely varying activity, that is why it is so amazing. What it comes down to is that each climber is going to have different motivations and satisfaction with different aspects of the sport. But for me, at least, it is dishonest to say that performance and climbing harder grades don't play into my enjoyment. In my book the best climber really is the one who is climbing the hardest, precisely because it is more fun and satisfying.