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WTF...self belaying with a grigri 2?!!

BWIce · · Ithaca, NY · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 70

I lead rope-solo on the ATC guide using this setup:

fcorpet.free.fr/Denis/Solo-…

I wouldn't project on this system (mostly because it's tedious) but it is great for alpine routes when you want a belay on a pitch or two on a long solo.

I've used the grigri 1 for TR soloing, but I only do that on my larger diameter single rope. I've noticed that on anything less than 10.0, the cam doesn't bite until a pretty serious load is placed on it. Partial loads or even those awkward, scrambly falls with on and off partial loading results in a lag for the cam to engage on the smaller ropes, which could mean a tumble (albeit, slowed) to the deck.

BWIce · · Ithaca, NY · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 70

On the not of anecdotal evidence of the dangers of solo climbing, there are quite a few examples of bad communication between climber/belayer which has resulted in pretty ugly accidents. I watched one of those at the Gunks where a climber was telling the belayer to lower him off a ledge, belayer didn't hear him and he stepped back with no one on the other end of the line for an 80ft decked fall. He survived, but it was more than a broken ankle.

I also heard a belayer yell up to his climber about 50ft off the ground at the Gunks, "wait, are you the hand or the guy?" while staring down at his grigri.

If you're in this sport with the belief that you can be in control of, or manage all of the hazards of the mountains, then you misunderstand what climbing is. Even the best, most experienced folks out there die, and die often because the mountains do not hold that same belief. Don't misunderstand me, we can have better practices of risk management, but it always comes down to what objective hazards you are willing to accept. No matter what systems that you have in place, there will be objective hazards that are out of your control.

That gentleman was right to laugh and say, "yeah, it's safe", meaning, it's a risk that he's willing to take. If you don't want to, then don't.

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
BWIce wrote:If you're in this sport with the belief that you can be in control of, or manage all of the hazards of the mountains, then you misunderstand what climbing is. Even the best, most experienced folks out there die, and die often because the mountains do not hold that same belief. Don't misunderstand me, we can have better practices of risk management, but it always comes down to what objective hazards you are willing to accept. No matter what systems that you have in place, there will be objective hazards that are out of your control. That gentleman was right to laugh and say, "yeah, it's safe", meaning, it's a risk that he's willing to take. If you don't want to, then don't.
Giant +1
Nate_801 · · St. George · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 105

So I stand corrected! Me and my buddy went out and tried this on a 5.7 yesterday and it worked fine. I can see how this would work for someone if they were in a hurry to get a quick pump in and didn't have partner.

It was pretty redundant having to pull the rope through my grigri2 and I can definitely see how it would be more interesting if we tried a harder route.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Nate_801 wrote:So I stand corrected! Me and my buddy went out and tried this on a 5.7 yesterday and it worked fine. I can see how this would work for someone if they were in a hurry to get a quick pump in and didn't have partner. It was pretty redundant having to pull the rope through my grigri2 and I can definitely see how it would be more interesting if we tried a harder route.
What does this mean?
wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674
BWIce wrote:I lead rope-solo on the ATC guide using this setup: fcorpet.free.fr/Denis/Solo-…
That reminded me of the old Bartlett system with a pulley and Prusik
Stiles · · the Mountains · Joined May 2003 · Points: 845

Of course solo leading on a toothed pulley is a bad idea, but TRing on a toothed pulley is alright? A traxion is the preferred solo TR belay method, but no one is concerned with rope damage? Repeated small falls on the same spot on the rope at the crux. How small are the falls? Three feet?
Is the solo TR rope not then used on lead, ever? I have a hard time being convinced, despite popularity, that falling at all on teeth won't hurt your rope.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Stiles wrote:Of course solo leading on a toothed pulley is a bad idea, but TRing on a toothed pulley is alright? A traxion is the preferred solo TR belay method, but no one is concerned with rope damage? Repeated small falls on the same spot on the rope at the crux. How small are the falls? Three feet? Is the solo TR rope not then used on lead, ever? I have a hard time being convinced, despite popularity, that falling at all on teeth won't hurt your rope.
If the device is pulling correctly, there shouldn't be even three ft of slack in the rope. It might stretch, but all of fall should be from the stretch. Although the ascender feeds well in general, I'm pretty vigilant about keeping slack out of the rope when solo-TRing. Aid climbers use toothed devices to haul and ascend ropes all the time and the loads can be pretty big. They are certainly ascending the lead line, and I've definitely used a line to haul and also used it to lead. As long as the teeth don't slip, there is no damage to the sheath. If there is, you will be able to see it. If you have several ropes, it probably wouldn't hurt to keep a more hearty rope for solo TRing, but if you don't, just inspect your rope well before any use (you should be doing this anyway).
Andrew Mertens · · Fort Collins · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 136
Stiles wrote:Of course solo leading on a toothed pulley is a bad idea, but TRing on a toothed pulley is alright? A traxion is the preferred solo TR belay method, but no one is concerned with rope damage? Repeated small falls on the same spot on the rope at the crux. How small are the falls? Three feet? Is the solo TR rope not then used on lead, ever? I have a hard time being convinced, despite popularity, that falling at all on teeth won't hurt your rope.
If you keep slack out of the system, and especially if you use a chest harness to keep the device sitting high, fall forces shouldn't be much higher than just quickly sitting on an ascender while jugging.
But if the rope somehow jams in the device and any slack builds up, the fall forces could feasibly be high enough to damage the rope, which is why its really important to down-climb or remove the slack immediately (and you'll definitely feel it if you are using a pack or something to weight the rope). But this is one reason why I like to use a non-toothed cinch as my primary device.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

the bigger problem with toothed ascenders is that many of them can be deactivated ... which means you should always do a function check (weight it at the bottom) to make sure its engaged

there arent too many popular non toothed ascenders out there

- grigri/cinch ... they arent recommended for soloing by their manufacturers, and have the various issues listed earlier ...

- ushba ... over a decade ago the ushba was found to cut the rope at > 5.5 kn when tested by those UK HSE safety folks ... still likely the most popular soloing device in squamish

- shunt ... has the big issue that if you grab it in panic it releases ... used by climbers notably dave macleod

- micro/rescue ascender ... the "safest" of the bunch, they can take ~12 KN and remain undamaged ... they start slipping around 3-4 kn, there may be some damage to the rope nominal damage to the rope though

- toothed ascenders ... they all damage the rope (strip sheath) around 4-6 KN ...

HSE report on fall safety

petzl also indicated the same for single ascender+single rope self belay

petzl self belay

petzl self belay

bottom line ... dont allow slack to build up in the system, use two ascenders, and/or use 2 independent lines ... and if for some reason you dont want to do any of those, use a microcender (50$)

its your call how much risk you want to take ... but it would be real shietty to die from taking some stupid risk TR soloing at your local crag ... much better to die on some X rated climb, or somewhere gnarly in the mountains

course its ALWAYS a good day to die ... KAPLAH !!!

;)

Braden Downey · · Bishop, CA · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 110
BWIce wrote:I lead rope-solo on the ATC guide using this setup: fcorpet.free.fr/Denis/Solo-…
DANGER: I used that setup on a couple alpine rope solo's because it was light, feeds and and seemed to lock up well. Intuitively sensing there was something dangerous about it I wasn't considering, I asked Colin Haley about it - he informed me that it will not catch in even a slightly inverted fall, which makes it extremely unreliable.

Methods I've found work well:
- A modified grigri rigged on a shoulder sling to keep it upright and feeding well (you can use this in conjunction with a ropeman on your leg loop to keep the weight of the rope from locking the grigri up).
- a clove on a locker works surprisingly well with a bit of practice
- Multiple backup knots tied every 10-20 feet or so, depending on the terrain. I untie each one as I climb
- I hear the "silent partner" is bomber, works well in inverted falls, and feeds effortlessly. Kinda heavy but maybe it's security and function justify the weight.

WARNING -
There are many hazards with self-belay methods that are very, very, VERY difficult to foresee! Even if you do it correctly, it's always less reliable than a real belay and backups are a must. Consult experts and experiment before trusting your life or limb to any of the methods mentioned above.
Justin Headley · · Tucson · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 622

To clarify (purely hypothetical, don't really plan on doing this),

Are you guys talking about setting up a "normal" TR, tying yourself in to one side like normal, and then attaching a grigri to your harness and the other side of the rope, or are you talking about setting up a single fixed line and the only connection you have to the rope is You--GriGri--Rope (with backup knots)?

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Hubert Cumberdale wrote:To clarify (purely hypothetical, don't really plan on doing this), Are you guys talking about setting up a "normal" TR, tying yourself in to one side like normal, and then attaching a grigri to your harness and the other side of the rope, or are you talking about setting up a single fixed line and the only connection you have to the rope is You--GriGri--Rope (with backup knots)?
The 2nd one. THe only time I have seen people use the first option was when setting routes in a gym where the rope was already up.
Justin Headley · · Tucson · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 622

Would the first be "safe", though? I can think of some uses for it, like if a line had already been set up and you want to clean it.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Hubert Cumberdale wrote:Would the first be "safe", though? I can think of some uses for it, like if a line had already been set up and you want to clean it.
Yes, it is just harder to pull the rope through. I'd still probably recommned a backup knot or some other backup in case the Gri did not engage.
Max Forbes · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 108

Its not recommended by petzl what-so-ever. That being said it can be done relatively safely and you rarely hear of accidents related to self-belay with grigri's.

Frank Cook · · Mazumbo, Bengo, AO · Joined Jul 2019 · Points: 0
BBQ wrote: Good grief! Make a friend already! Put an ad in the newspaper! Put a thread on MP! Go to climbing singles dot com or Ashley Madison dot com for all I care. STOP BELAYING YOURSELF WITH A GRIGRI! There is no excuse to go climbing without a partner.

Calm down. Been doing it for years. 

Emil Alejandria · · Oakland, CA · Joined Jun 2019 · Points: 0
Frank Cook wrote:

Calm down. Been doing it for years. 

Holy necro

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

one advantage of using a gri-gri is it can also be used for lead solo whereas micro and mini traX's cannot

for top rope soloing though I prefer using a micro or mini

depending on my confidence that day either running a single on a single or a double on a single or two singles on two singles

and there you have it

 

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2
Tamiban Gueterstan wrote:

Honestly I think a hypothetical completely hands free grigri is safer than the average ATC at the crag.

Bearbreeder heard that and is not happy.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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