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Trad Draws

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K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

Do most people use one or two carabiners with trad draws? I believe I saw someone who used one biner per trad draw and clipped the other end of the sling into the cam's biner when clipping into a cam or used a spare biner from the harness if clipping into a not-cam.

Is two just easier/more flexible? Or is the latter approach a good idea for saving the weight of a bunch of extra biners?

ChefMattThaner · · Lakewood, co · Joined May 2013 · Points: 246

I usually carry most of my trad draws over my shoulder with only one bent gate biner since I rack all of my cams individually on their own biner. Some people like to rack multiple cams per biner(only good for climbing below your level) and therefore need 2 biners per trad draw. That being said I also always take a few trad draws with 2 carabiners each in case I need to extend a nut palcement.

I have also seen people who rack their cams on individual biners but for some reason still use 2 carabiner trad draws and simply leave the "racking biner" on the thumb loop of the cam and clip their draw to the loop. This seems like a waste of a biner and a shit ton of extra weight but to each his own.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
ChefMattThaner wrote:I usually carry most of my trad draws over my shoulder with only one bent gate biner...only good for climbing below your level. This seems like a waste of a biner and a shit ton of extra weight but to each his own.
Don't kid yourself, you are saving the weight of about 6-8 biners, a little over the weight of that extra 2 camalot you don't need. You still need 2 biners for all your passive gear. As for climbing hard, pulling a sling over the shoulder upsets your balance way more than pulling one off the harness.
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

It's not an "alpine draw" if it only has one carabiner on it. I think your question is "How do you rack your slings," but I'm not sure.

Alpine/trad draws are good for clipping and extending nut placements.

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50
FrankPS wrote:It's not an "alpine draw" if it only has one carabiner on it. I think your question is "How do you rack your slings," but I'm not sure. Alpine/trad draws are good for clipping and extending nut placements.
Thanks for the clarification. In the end, the slings I was talking about become an "alpine draw" because they will have a carabiner on each end (one from the cam or one from the harness plus one already placed on the sling). Yes, the question is how to rack the gear for constructing alpine draws, or just to start them out as alpine draws with two biners.

I should mention I was not considering the over the shoulder approach. I know the consequences of it.
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

Kyle, putting slings over your shoulder with one biner is not
"wrong." A lot of climbers do that. You are often at a good stance where pulling a runner over your shoulder is not a problem. You will find out what works best for you.

If you use the over-the-shoulder method, it's still good to have a couple of trad draws on your harness for nuts or the occasional hard move where taking a sling off your shoulder would be difficult.

Nate Solnit · · Bath, NH · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0

I'm a fan of the racking method shown here with two carabiners on each draw. cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0…
That way you can clip short to any piece, a shoulder length ends up at about the length of a sport draw. They're easy to rack, and to extend you can clip any one of the three strands with either biner and it will pull cleanly to an extended sling.

Eddie Russell · · Pa · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 280

I use slings over the shoulder with one biner to extend cam placements and I use alpine draws to extend nut, hex, and tri-cam placements.

Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25

Most of my slings go on the harness as alpine draws, maybe a few over the shoulder just to save harness space if I need a lot of slings. Alpine draws are nice because a) you can extend passive pro and b) you can use it like a quickdraw if you only want to extend a cam a little bit. On that note I also usually take a few lightweight quickdraws.

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

FrankPS sorry don't mean to offend any methods. Each works better for different people. The downsides of the over the shoulder method seem extra bad for a noob like me because it can take some planning (the sort of planning that is hard for noobs to get right). I just like the idea of having a consistent method of racking until I get a better feel for how many times I may need a passive piece or how many times I might be forced to reach with one hand or the other.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Unless you like the over the shoulder thing, go for alpine draws.

Slightly off topic:
If you have the money and are starting from scratch, I'd suggest a maximum diameter of 8mm for the slings. Buy the type that has the stitching hidden so there are no ends to the sling that can catch. Use silver coloured carabiners for the top of the draw and red for the bottom ones (this means you keep the rope carabiner away from nasty sharp-edged pegs and bolts. The red ones should be of the no-tooth type so they never catch. (e.g. WC heliums). I find it best if full sized carabiners are used, in part because your alpine draws will be the source of any extra carabiners you might need on route and might end up being clove hitched with a fat rope.

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

David Coley, thanks for the good advice. I was planning on getting Mammut contact slings 8mm 60cm.

How many slings are best? And should any be the longer 120cm variety?

Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25

Number of slings that you actually rack up with depends on the climb, but to have available I'd say 10 24" slings, 2 48" slings, and a few draws should cover you on just about anything.

Ryan Hill · · Denver, CO · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 30

Kyle, you'll find that it really depends on the route in question.

On easier, alpine-style climbs I will rack each cam with a sling and two carabiners, as I assume I will have to extend nearly every placement. On longer, multi-pitch outings I do about half alpine draws and half slings w/carabiners over the shoulder. On single pitch climbs I might climb with only alpine draws, no draws, or a mixture of pre-rigged and extended slings. It just depends on what the route calls for.

I'd say that the weight is less of a consideration when compared to the speed with which you can place gear and move on. Ultimately you do what is fastest and most comfortable for you in a given situation.

Linnaeus · · ID · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 0

The Mammut Contact slings are nice, and the sleeve over the bartack is nice but not necessary. Keep your eyes open for good deals, I just replaced all my 60cm slings with Camp 8mm dyneema slings for $4.xx each off Sierra Trading post! You can get biners on sale for $4 each, so you can make your own $12-14 trad draws that are very light and use full size biners. I probably should have bought more than 10.

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

I got 10 alpha light quickdraws to cannibalize the biners (cheaper than buying the biners alone, plus if I ever do multipitch sport they may be good), 10 60cm Mammut Contact slings, two 120cm Mammut Contact slings. I think that should cover me for now. I contemplated 12 draws, but I can take some off my Livewire draws if needed.

nbrown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 7,718

Kyle,

A little background on the use of the modern term "draw":

It's derived from the word "quickdraw", which is also short for term "quick-draw length runner". These were originally invented to fill the gap between (ultra short) double-linked biners and long (shoulder-length) slings. Their increased popularity is due to an big increase in bolted routes over recent decades.

If the runner is shortened and hanging on your harness it's generally called a quickdraw. If it's around your shoulder it's usually either called a "shoulder-length runner", or a "double shoulder-length runner" (but nowadays a lot of people refer to them by their length in inches for some reason).

"Trad-draws" are a relatively recent way of racking slings, and a pretty convenient way most of the time. As others have said, it's essentially a tripled "shoulder-length" runner that can be used as a "quickdraw" (though a specific "draw" is always the best option if you have them).

In the end, it doesn't really matter whether you clip the biner that's on the cam or leave it hanging. It really just comes down to whatever is most efficient for a given climb. On harder routes most people are just gonna clip and go as quickly as possible. On easier climbs, it's not a bad idea to keep the extra biners in case you'll need them up higher (you can always incorporate them into makeshift draws using wires, slings on cams, etc.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
Kyle Robson wrote:David Coley, thanks for the good advice. I was planning on getting Mammut contact slings 8mm 60cm. How many slings are best? And should any be the longer 120cm variety?
I'd start with a minimum of six 60cm and two 120cm. As others have said it all depends on what you are doing and whether you use double or single ropes.

As an extreme example, I'm working the first ascent of a 1000m traverse on a sea cliff at the moment. The route goes in and out of caves, corners and aretes. Every piece needs to be extended with a sling even though we are using half ropes.

At the other extreme, on a vertical crack you might only need normal short draws even with a single rope.

But a minimum of six will get you started, ten would be plenty most of the time.

Hope that helps.
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
Kyle Robson wrote:Do most people use one or two carabiners with trad draws? I believe I saw someone who used one biner per trad draw and clipped the other end of the sling into the cam's biner when clipping into a cam or used a spare biner from the harness if clipping into a not-cam. Is two just easier/more flexible? Or is the latter approach a good idea for saving the weight of a bunch of extra biners?
I would always use draws with two carabiners, and I would not normally remove the unused carabiner from a cam unless I was running low on gear. But possibly not for the reasons you might have been thinking:

If you can afford it, colour code all your gear. i.e. the yellow cams go on yellow carabiners, etc. the top carabiner of all draws is silver, your nut tool is on a strange looking carabiner, your stoppers (wires) are on three big coloured oval carabiners (small, medium, large) and each wire is marked with electrical tape to match its carabiner.

Sounds OTT? Possibly, but if you are alternating leads or carrying a large rack it really helps. No more looking for the right sized cam, just grab the yellow carabiner. And no comments from the second as you both re-build the rack at the stance of "do you rack your wires 1-5 or 1-7 on the same carabiner?". This means that cams need to stay with their coloured carabiners.
K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

I just ordered five Mad Rock Oval Tech, a light oval keylock biner. I have a lot of passive pro, although I doubt I'd ever climb with all of it. 1 set of nuts, 1 set of offset nuts, 6 hexes, 2 sets of tricams (yes I know two sets of tricams is overkill). If I ever need to carry nuts, offsets, tricams, and hexes, I don't know how I'd rack that. I was thinking half of the regular nuts on one biner, half on another, the offsets on one biner, tricams on one biner, and hexes on one biner. If I use 3 biners for the one set of nuts, I need 6 ovals at max... But if I somehow managed to carry all my passive pro, worst case I just use a non oval biner.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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