Belay accident with Trango Cinch

This is way too involved an issue to address simply, here. I will summarize:
1. Nothing in this report clearly reveals any shortcoming with the device, but rather the manner of inverting it in use according to one of the Trango pics. Think about it- you are used to one way, then suddenly INVERT it; is it not possible in action your reflexes
behaved contrary to the new orientation of the device? (also, slandering a device without specific references to accidents is irresponsible and only reveals your biases)
2. I and many friends used the earliest Cinches, typically for 3 months, and then just as we felt confident in them, we DROPPED someone!
3. Fortunately, indoors for me, no serious consequences.
4. I then re-examined every aspect, weakness of use, etc. until I was satisfied I had re-learned a completely different method of holding it that bypassed the inadvertent dangers, some of which I still see in the "official" manual.
5. In the 6-8yr.(?) since, as my primary belay device, I have never again failed to catch a fall, in control. Around 20-25,000 catches.
6. I just replaced mine with the newest version, and find NO difference in catching (ie no slippage), but notice an improved lowering control rate.
7. I do NOT trust beginners with either Gri Gris or Cinches, but agree Cinches are far trickier. This is not equivalent to saying they're inherently bad or dangerous. Bad technique with an ATC is a guaranteed drop as well.
8. Cinch Problem 1 = very position-sensitive, because with no spring, it can freely swivel and if you hold it BELOW the level of the harness, it can unweight the camming action - also, why it is so dangerous used as an ascender on a rope.
9. I cup it in my right hand, even or above the waist belay loop,
thumb over the rope just out from the entry/brake side; leader/exit opening is above/closer to waist.
.10. I am always gently lifting the Cinch, so tension is against the waist clip-in biner, and unless I am actively feeding out rope, my thumb is initiating the braking action at all times. Free feed is a matter of slightly rotating the cam side, with the 3rd and little fingers. 1/4 to 1/2 inch max. and the brake thumb never leaves position the entire time.
11. Position is Everything: IF the Cinch hangs too low, so the waist biner points horizontal or even down, the device is too open and rope friction is running perpendicular to the direction line that needs to load the camming action.
12. Cinch owners should play around with these position-critical aspects to learn how and when the device will and will not cam effectively.
13. They and Gri Gri users should also experiment, to see how totally useless both are, when yanked up against a fixed/directional biner so commonly used in hanging belays.
14. Thankfully, there are almost no unsafe devices today, in the sense they crack, shatter, fail entirely under normal anticipated usage. There are, however, unsafe techniques for using every single device sold. The only way climbers can be responsible is to thoroughly practice, learn the shortcomings/limitations of their hardware, and develop techniques that work around those limits.
15. Never use any device you are not comfortable and familiar with, and never adopt someone else's new/better method until you have tested and understood for yourself whether it measures up to your standards.

Kevin,

You have burns on your left hand.

That's case in point that you were grabbing the climber side of the rope too hard.

No one cares what the pros are doing in the PETZL video.

The fact is, you've been caught "red handed" if you will.

Furthermore, you've admitted clearly to not "clamping down firmly with your brake hand" when the climber fell. That means you failed to belay properly.

Today I caught over a dozen lead falls from my diminutive female partner at the VRG - one was close to 40 feet. She actually even commented today that I'm a good belayer. You know what? Each time she fell I fucking clamped down my brake hand. I use the word "fucking" to emphasize how important this is. What device I was using was irrelevant. I also gave her a wonderfully soft dynamic catch each and every time.

It's not magic, but belaying is a skill that takes years of practice just like climbing.

As a side note, I don't let people belay me with a Cinch. But then I don't let amateurs belay me period. My ankles, and life, are too precious. And Kevin, until you admit that you fucked up, and stop blaming the cinch and throwing out red herrings about how ATC's work fine and about how the pros use their grigri's you're never going to improve as a belayer. Good luck and do your best not to injure or kill someone!

After 3 pages of conjecture and anecdotes, the only thing that's been clearly established is that the original poster used improper belay technique and dropped his climbing partner.

I still belay with my Cinch, catching hundreds of lead falls a year. Caught a monster 40 footer (with a 220 lbs climber!) at the Red this past season and the Cinch worked perfectly. Much like Jake Jones and his Cinch, mine also shows a bit of wear on the steel rotation pin, and yet, the device continues to work as intended.

Any belay device used correctly will arrest a fall.Belay devices don't kill climbers , belayers do! Belaying is an underrrated climbing skill, sadly, and one I take great pride in attempting to perform with absolute perfection , I actually enjoy belaying a leader, I feel like as a belayer I am a very important part of a succesful ascent.

1. ELA said he dropped someone after 3 months of using the device and he still sees the dangerous misuses of the device printed in OFFICIAL manuals. How is a consumer suppose to know the correct or incorrect way to belay, and most only look closely at how it operates only AFTER and accident. He and his friends were lucky that no one was hurt, but what if someone had died? I don't see how Trango is not at least partially at fault for printing misinformation.

2. You can burn your hands even if you just clasp the rope, but do not cinch (ha) down on it. You can try it. I know my burns were superficial because I had gotten a proper rope burn before and it blistered up like HELL. But this time I was back to climbing in less than a week and no blisters formed.

3. How is your anecdote evidence better than mine? At least I bothered to raise awareness about the issue and let people have another source of information. And I'm not alone. Lots of people have come forward. I could have kept silent and judging from the feedback, maybe I should have. I also had 100 percent confidence and success rate with the Cinch for 2-3 years as my primary device.

4. We use the GriGri 2 now. It was hard to get used to and still does not feed slack as easily, but lives are worth the $80 that we paid for it. My Cinch is gathering dust somewhere. If the Cinch works for you, great. Keep using it. And I'm not being sarcastic; use what you like.

5. What is all this "blame the victim" mentality with climbers?

ELA wrote:I and many friends used the earliest Cinches, typically for 3 months, and then just as we felt confident in them, we DROPPED someone!

What? You and MANY friends have dropped people? Good god.

ELA wrote:Cinch Problem 1 = very position-sensitive, because with no spring, it can freely swivel and if you hold it BELOW the level of the harness, it can unweight the camming action - also, why it is so dangerous used as an ascender on a rope.

Have you ever held a GriGri? You can freely move the rope through that too- both ways, until the cam is engaged. Any device will be "below the level of the harness" or level with the belay loop hanging by the biner when there is no tension on the rope- which there should not be until your climber falls, or unless you're feeding slack.

ELA wrote:I cup it in my right hand, even or above the waist belay loop, thumb over the rope just out from the entry/brake side; leader/exit opening is above/closer to waist... I am always gently lifting the Cinch, so tension is against the waist clip-in biner, and unless I am actively feeding out rope, my thumb is initiating the braking action at all times.

This is incorrect. From the instructions that came with your Cinch:

"Do not hold the entire Cinch in your hand while
belaying or you could defeat the braking mechanism,
resulting in serious injury or death."

Maybe you should read your instruction booklet instead of going on the Internet and spraying some long ass multi-step instruction pamphlet that is wrong- after you've mentioned that you and many friends have dropped people.

KevinK wrote:What is all this "blame the victim" mentality with climbers?

You fucked up. Plain and simple. You and your buddy ELA. This is why the device gets a bad reputation. Blame the victim? The victim was the climber. You are to blame. Pretty cut and dried.

I have a Cinch in a box with my Beta tapes. Damn progress!

The Cinch did not lock because you were holding the rope firmly above the device, reducing load on the locking mechanism. Blame the Cinch all you want, but the same result would likely have happened with a GriGri, Sum, or any other "ASSISTED braking" device. Unfortunately, it doesn't really sound like you've learned much from your very lucky accident--classic example of why one must be exceedingly careful with who they choose to partner with. And above all, keep control of the brake strand and catch the fall with your brake hand no matter which device you use... even with the left hand error you made, you could have still caught the fall with your right hand more quickly if you had the brake strand under control.

Dustin Stephens wrote:but the same result would likely have happened with a GriGri...

No sorry you're wrong, it wouldn't have happened with a grigri.

I wish you were right about that. Unfortunately, there have been literally dozens of GriGri belay accidents over the last few years in the Red because of this exact error.

Is there any way you can confirm that information? I'm not calling you a liar or anything, but it seems we would have heard about it somehow if people were being dropped like hotcakes at the Red. At least half of those I would think would result in some sort of injury that would generate a report. No?

DozenS implies more than one dozen, which means at bare minimum 24. 24 belay failures for one area over a "few years" is still quite a bit.

Get in touch with Muir Valley people, they might be willing to release information. There was a fatality at the Dark Side a few years back from GriGri user error. Belaying accidents are very common here on a variety of different devices. Probably some reports made it to AAJ accidents, but most don't bother for a variety of reasons. Fortunately 2013 was a better year than most in this regard. I actually avoid certain crags now to lessen the probability of having to spend the day helping with another evac. There are hordes of bad belayers (in addition to anchor-cleaning errors) in the peak season. No doubt a Cinch is trickier and perhaps more error-prone than other devices, but still it is not accurate to claim it's the fault of the device in this case.

Here's one that made it in anyway, a typical example of what goes on every weekend in the busy season: publications.americanalpine…

Dustin Stephens wrote:I wish you were right about that. Unfortunately, there have been literally dozens of GriGri belay accidents over the last few years in the Red because of this exact error.

because they were holding their brake hand above the device? Not true. There may have been errors because they used their guide hand to break and thus prevent the cam, sure that's blatant user error. As long as you are holding the grigri with your brake hand only, no matter the position, it will never replicate a failure like the cinch.

I was climbing with a stranger at the gym on my GriGri 2, which he wanted to try. He dropped me to the deck. What happened? He grabbed the sharp end of the rope with his left hand, slowing down the fall, preventing the GriGri from engaging, and burning his feed hand and brake hand in the process. There is your example. I've been using GriGris since the early 90s, and don't mind using the Cinch BTW.

Usage nerd alert:

Brake - to stop or slow something

Break - To cause to separate into pieces suddenly or violently; smash.

So use your BRAKE hand to stop your friend from BREAKing his or her legs no matter what belay device you use!

For what it is worth, I use the Cinch for sport, multipitch and toprope solo. It has never failed me, nor has it ever slipped on me.

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NICE!
Please Grammar Don't Hurt 'Em!

Dustin Stephens wrote: There was a fatality at the Dark Side a few years back from GriGri user error.

That was a Cinch error. The reports also mention the device was loaded correctly and in good working order. This was probably THE incident that woke the world up about the Cinch.

I don't know if it's laughable or sickening that you've turned the facts around because of your ignorance.

I wonder why it "woke everyone up" when it was belayer error, not device failure.

Just someone that didn't know how to use the device.

mountainproject.com/v/grigr…

It certainly didn't wake up the perpetually asleep, such as yourself. It woke up a more intelligent and analytic core that realizes that there is nothing in that accident that couldn't happen to them.

You and many in this thread and other are exhibiting classic Dunning Kruger Effect . In essence, the incompetent are too unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.

It's rampant in climbing. Try to learn from this, rather than argue.