Adding Bolts between runouts

Matt N wrote: Yes. There are tens of thousands of other routes to be climbed. No one is forcing you to climb that runout. Once you've ticked all those safe climbs at the grade, then come back and complain.

Sorry, it's a bit of a squeeze, but I think this falls under 'misguided climb/crag ownership.' You and your lot get these climbs, I and others get the rest.

EDIT: Also twists my words, by suggesting my question was a complaint and in the process portrays me as a complainer. I didn't see it at first, but you batted 3 for 4 in the stereotypical No-Bolts-for-Dangerous-Climbs argument. Good for you!

Via Ferrata all the way!

No climb should ever be dangerous! Permanent top ropes should be placed by the FA for all those who follow.

• this includes any boulder taller than 12' also. We don't need any broken ankles!

Matt N wrote:Via Ferrata all the way! No climb should ever be dangerous! Permanent top ropes should be placed by the FA for all those who follow. *this includes any boulder taller than 12' also. We don't need any broken ankles!

Aid climbing's not really my thing, same as lazy hyperbole. Glad you were able to mark off that last check box of recycled tropes used to justify leaving dangerous climbs dangerous with the ever popular, 'historical wrongs should be repeated further because they've been repeated previously' assertion.

We need an escalator up Everest!

We all must meet the lowest common denominator. No Child Left Behind!

Ben Huber wrote: Sorry, it's a bit of a squeeze, but I think this falls under 'misguided climb/crag ownership.' You and your lot get these climbs, I and others get the rest.

I can't climb 5.12 - can someone please chip some holds for me? Its only fair for equal access for all. Why should I have to bring my climbing up to your level?

I think the real hang-up for people looking to summit Everest is the $60K... but if you want to continue misconstruing my request that you put together a salient point as ADA compatibility for every crag and mountain, feel free!

Ben Huber wrote:I think the real hang-up for people looking to summit Everest is the $60K... but if you want to continue misconstruing my request that you put together a salient point as ADA compatibility for every crag and mountain, feel free!

You didn't respond to my request to chip 5.12s into 5.10s, though. Why can't your argument go both ways?

If every climb should be brought down to a sport climbing safety level, then everything over 5.10 should have added/chipped holds to bring it down to my level. I won't clip your bolts and you won't use my holds (I believe they're called 'eliminates').

Sounds like we've found the compromise - its called a climbing gym and they already exist!

Guy Keesee wrote:20 Kn said... I have seen crags closed as a result of too many injuries, and if adding a bolt to a climb would have prevented or prolonged the closure, then add away. Access trumps everything. Interesting .... what crag was shut down????

The vast majority of climbing in Hawaii was closed after a girl was injured. Granted she was injured from rock fall, but it does not matter, in the eyes of the land owners, rock fall, decking from a runout, whatever, the landowner does not care. Our crags were open for over 15 years without incident prior to the injury.

Cor wrote:What 20kN said…HA try that shit at the Gunks! (Or many other places for that matter.)

The Gunks is not a relevant example. I said areas with access issues that could be compromised from an injury. That does not include the Gunks.

Matt N wrote: You didn't respond to my request to chip 5.12s into 5.10s, though. Why can't your argument go both ways? If every climb should be brought down to a sport climbing safety level, then everything over 5.10 should have added/chipped holds to bring it down to my level. I won't clip your bolts and you won't use my holds (I believe they're called 'eliminates'). Sounds like we've found the compromise - its called a climbing gym and they already exist!

Congrats! You beat me, I didn't specifically say "No False Equivalencies!" You clever boy you, next you can call me Hitler, or my ideas socialist (oh wait...). If you're really ambitious, you can choose a really obscure fallacy, here's a running list: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_…

Circle jerk-ception.

20kN, Skytop has access issues.. But seriously, if a bolt is what is going to help keep a climbing area open. then the area is probably doomed anyway. An example would be the girl & rock fall & closure.. IMHO

don'tchuffonme wrote: Fuck yeah. Try to stop me. I'll have guys that can climb 5.13d off the couch guarding the first pitch. I mean who cares about runouts? Runouts are just something to spray about, right Sahalie? Mental fortitude means nothing, and only 5.8 chuffers really care about them. I'm bolting every runout testpiece to prove that sport climbing is superior because strength and physical prowess is the only thing that matters. If you think otherwise, you're just spraying about how bad ass you are when really you need runouts to feel like you did something worthwhile because you can't do hard moves. Right Sahalie? That's pretty much your position. Keeping runouts on ground up routes is archaic and everything should be safe. It's the only way to see who can really crank and who can't- and that's all that really matters.

jesus chuffykillis, its OK bro

20Kn said..

The vast majority of climbing in Hawaii was closed after a girl was injured. Granted she was injured from rock fall, but it does not matter, in the eyes of the land owners, rock fall, decking from a runout, whatever, the landowner does not care. Our crags were open for over 15 years without incident prior to the injury.

Thanks... I figured you were talking about Hawaii. Pretty limited climbing on the Islands from what I have been told.

What governmental agencies manage the land where the crags are at OR is it some private owned place???

Because using one injury as an excuse is pretty drastic IMHO

Don't people die surfing????

In HI there is one very good sport crag of about 80 routes, with spectacular position over the ocean, and several smaller crags. A friend of mine equiped many of these areas with titanium glue-ins at his own cost, so the routes are about as safe as they get. The land is owned by the state, which has sovereign immunity for water sports, but not for other activities. Hiking trails have been closed in HI because hikers were hurt/lost/killed. The state lives in terror of the trial lawyers lobby. And yes,there have been virtually no access issues until this girl (part of a boyscout group) was hurt at the base of a top rope, and lawsuits ensued.

LOCKER SAYS...

Like many other things, there are EXCEPTIONS when it's OK.



So True..... We have a RapBolted crag here that just sucked....

the boys who made it put down about 20 - 30 roots.... in three weekends!

Chossy stone, long runouts, bolts placed with no thought as to where the weakness is.... made for a forgotten crag.

Intill a few years ago...... some saint, fixxed two of the roots by pulling and re-bolting it. These two climbs are now quite enjoyable, 10D and 11A....

More of these roots are being reconfigured and the place is now becoming more popular as the word gets out.

This is 180 degrees from the TRAD ethics I always followed, so things change, for the better.

But it will never be OK to go add bolts to some test piece like the EDGE..... you be spitting on Tobins grave.

schmuck.... thanks for the low down. Sounds like a job for the Access Fund to work on.

We went through all that, sue, lawsuit- counter suit- BS in the 80's out here.

as you know we have a helo evac almost every weekend in Josh... I bet Jared Moore would just love for the whole place to be retrobolted, Holcome style, just to make it safe.

Guy Keesee wrote:LOCKER SAYS... Like many other things, there are EXCEPTIONS when it's OK. So True..... We have a RapBolted crag here that just sucked.... the boys who made it put down about 20 - 30 roots.... in three weekends! Chossy stone, long runouts, bolts placed with no thought as to where the weakness is.... made for a forgotten crag. Intill a few years ago...... some saint, fixxed two of the roots by pulling and re-bolting it. These two climbs are now quite enjoyable, 10D and 11A.... More of these roots are being reconfigured and the place is now becoming more popular as the word gets out. This is 180 degrees from the TRAD ethics I always followed, so things change, for the better. But it will never be OK to go add bolts to some test piece like the EDGE..... you be spitting on Tobins grave.

#1 you really had me confused with the whole "roots" thing

and #2, I sure the hell hope the saint who fixed the roots had special permission from the FA parties cause thats the only ethical way to do that, even if it hasnt been climbed for 20 years

MJM.... says:

I sure the hell hope the saint who fixed the roots had special permission from the FA parties cause thats the only ethical way to do that, even if it hasnt been climbed for 20 years


MJM.... I was in line with your sentiments, at first. But after climbing the reworked climbs its like- I thought to myself "screw the old way of thinking, this works."

We are talking about some of the worst climbs I have ever seen/done. Not TM classics.

HICKS... nice roots. ;> )

Locker.... when you coming back??????

Guy Keesee wrote:"screw the old way of thinking, this works."

I agree, rules/ethics/laws are meant to be changed, if not our jails would be filled with abortion doctors, homosexuals and colored people that used the wrong entrance to a building.