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Material for ice axe picks

Original Post
Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145

Hey folks,

A friend asked if it would be possible to make some custom ice axe picks for her, so I'm curious what materials are usually used. The one's she's currently running are "armor plate", but that's about as descriptive as "steel".

Anyone have better info?

BTW, not looking for suggestions to head over to matweb or concerns about using plate vs forged; just hoping someone has beta on what alloys are used on the standard commercial picks.

Thanks!

-aric.

Forthright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 110

I would guess that the strength in the picks is almost as dependent on the material as the heat treatment on them.

PatCleary · · Boston, MA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

Grivel's picks are listed as chromolly, so 41xx series steel. Probably a forging specific version. I'd probably start with a 4140, as it's widely available, and reasonably strong. I know there's a thread on Backpacking light about building one, and the tests to meet the B/T specs.

Rob Cotter · · Silverthorne, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 240

Did she mean "Armor Steel"?

krukonogi.com/en/

Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

..someting malleable, so it will fit into and take the shape of the holes in the ice...eh? Soft metal is less damage to ice too!/;-)

Malcolm Daly · · Hailey, ID · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 380

Arik,

4130 or. better, 4340. Best of all, look up an old article in Wired Magazine about the dragonslayer some guys in Wisconsin were using for a sword. BITD I got ahold of them and they sent me a sample that I was to to make a pick from. Trouble was I couldn't find anyone who could machine it. I think you'd need a water jet cutter. Plasma wouldn't cut it.
Mal

Malcolm Daly · · Hailey, ID · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 380

Here ya go:

wired.com/wired/archive/9.0…

BITD, BD used a material called Aermet for a high-graded pick material. It was steel used in the landing gear and tail hooks on Navy planes landing of aircraft carriers. It had two fatal flaws: first, more than 50% of them were a bit warped? I guess they were tough to heat treat and then cool down without warping. Second, They were too thin. While they were awesome in really cold brittle ice, they'd rake through in normal ice. Third ( yeah, yeah, I'm counting), they were really tough to sharpen.

Mal

PatCleary · · Boston, MA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

Pay attention to the last line of the Wired article about hardness/brittleness. There's a correlation between the two, and the last thing you want is a pick that will blow apart or that you can't sharpen. Obviously you need enough strength, to hold a person (or for T type picks take torquing loads) but beyond that extra strength becomes a risk factor, not a benefit.

Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145

Thanks Folks, that jives with what I was told on ST (but with a whole lot less OT).

Think first step will be to dig out that BD X15 I have in the garage (I use it as a pickaroon when chopping wood) and throw it on the hardness tester. If it comes out near 4140PH, that would be a quick, cheap and easy way to work through tweaking the shape.

Dane · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 562

One thing worth noting is the temperatures at which your pick will be used. Some alloys get a little weird at -20C/-40C.

A quick google search will turn up all sorts of data, commentary and photos of broken picks.

PatCleary · · Boston, MA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

FYI, full hard 4140 is a bitch to machine unless you have tools and machines specifically for working hardened metals. I got a nasty-gram from one of our machinists one time when I spec'd full or half hard.

Also, I've been curious about designing an ice pick. If you want some help with the analytical side of things, let me know.

Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145
PatCleary wrote:FYI, full hard 4140 is a bitch to machine unless you have tools and machines specifically for working hardened metals.
Nah, it's not bad at all (machinability rating of ~55%). Even my little POS benchtop mill handles it just fine provided I keep the cuts light. If you want to really ruin his day, send him some inconel or hastalloy (rated ~20% and below). :)
PatCleary · · Boston, MA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

Come to think of it, that guy did complain a lot in general.

Don Ford · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 0

inconel,hastalloy,waspalloy or any other superalloy must be annealed before machining. I work where the stuff is made and see it done everyday. carbide cutters are required.

Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145

Yeah, not fun stuff to work with. Lots of advances have been made in hardmilling though, so wouldn't be surprised if people were cutting it hardened nowadays.

Anyway, I'm just saying if his machinist was complaining about 4140 he's had a cushy life. :)

Kai Larson · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 436
Malcolm Daly wrote:Here ya go: wired.com/wired/archive/9.0… BITD, BD used a material called Aermet for a high-graded pick material. It was steel used in the landing gear and tail hooks on Navy planes landing of aircraft carriers. It had two fatal flaws: first, more than 50% of them were a bit warped? I guess they were tough to heat treat and then cool down without warping. Second, They were too thin. While they were awesome in really cold brittle ice, they'd rake through in normal ice. Third ( yeah, yeah, I'm counting), they were really tough to sharpen. Mal
I've got some Aermet picks. The things are well-nigh indestructible. They just won't wear out. They are very tough to sharpen, but they need sharpening a lot less than any other pick. I bought 6 of them when BD discontinued them. Still haven't managed to wear out the original 2, after thousands of meters of climbing.

I spoke with a BD guy at the time. He said they broke their machines.
Alex Temus · · Lehi, UT · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 362

My friends and I have spent some time designing tools recently and I'm about ready to cut out the picks with a waterjet.

Seeing as it's been a few years, how did your ice tools turn out? What grade did you end up using for the picks and what thickness?

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

4150. The heat treat is more important though. 

LL Biner · · Reno, NV · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 0

Over the years I've used a lot of different tools, each, seemingly with different pick materials and qualities.

Cassin has never impressed me,and I wore through some of their Formula tool picks with regularity.

BDs seem Ok , but they get banged up pretty easily,Grivel seem pretty tough.

I've only ever seen one pick snap off, and that was from a LaPrade tool many, many moons ago.

I seriously doubt you can replicate anything close to what's out there, so, if you can bother, order from Krukongi.

I have a pair of their armor plate picks, and for the price, they're hard to beat; you just need to HAVE TOOLS THAT MATCH THEIR SELECTION!

The only chance you have of working with chromoly is Cobalt( not Carbide) tools and lots of coolant; once Chromoly heats up you'll form a oxide surface which will need to ground off, otherwise your tool bits will just spin.

Mario

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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