Edelrid Mega Jul

Ray Pinpillage wrote:Perhaps you'll consider using a caribiner with your next replacement?

This one broke while lowering, not rappelling.

At this point, I've contacted the Edelrid USA rep and asked them if Edelrid has fixed the issue.

I don't want to keep using these devices if they are all going to fail on me.

Edit: Got an email from Edelrid customer service this morning.

"We have had a very small batch of MicroJuls were the cable easily pulled out. We managed to keep the majority of these MicroJuls away from the market but a few got sent out.
It seemed like you had one of those. Microjuls that read 1/13 or 2/13 on the side are from that bad batch.
The Microjul´s cable has now been redesigned to eliminate the possibility of ripping the cable out."

All 4 of my Jul devices were the 1/13 or 2/13 batches. I guess this explains the issues I've been having. Looking at the replacement Micro Jul they sent me, I do notice a slight difference in the cable/thumb loop. I'm sending back the 3 Jul devices I have from the bad batches, and they're sending me replacements that are the new design. I'm going to give these devices another try. I love the way they function. Hoping that this redesign fixes this problem.

I'm still wondering what the pull strength of the "non defective" devices is?

Why wont they do a recall of that batch?

If its limited in scope and the owners can ID if they have one quickly

Or at least post this information publicly, issue a notice?

Note that there are TWELVE of these failures in the past year .. The 8 that edelrid admitted were sent back, back in april ... 2 others that have been posted up and the 2 just recently posted

Ive never heard of so many instances if climbing gear falling apart in the first year ... Has anyone else?

And those are the ones we know of ...

;)

Ray Pinpillage wrote:I'm still wondering what the pull strength of the "non defective" devices is?

Per the Edelrid rep:

"Generally speaking, the cable is designed to withstand at the very least 150kg. A force that is never reached when used correctly."

bearbreeder wrote:Why wont they do a recall of that batch? If its limited in scope and the owners can ID if they have one quickly Or at least post this information publicly, issue a notice? Note that there are TWELVE of these failures in the past year .. The 8 that edelrid admitted were sent back, back in april ... 2 others that have been posted up and the 2 just recently posted Ive never heard of so many instances if climbing gear falling apart in the first year ... Has anyone else? And those are the ones we know of ... ;)

The trigger assemblies on the original camalots fell apart, nearly 100% of them, and no recall was done. Ice-axe picks used to break constantly, necessitating the "3rd tool" which almost nobody needs anymore. The next generation they made better, and so on. That's the nature of innovation.

I've been using the Mega- and MicroJul and while the concept may not yet be perfect, I'd say it is better and more versatile than any other belay/rappel device and is the biggest technological advance in climbing since the grigri. My guess is that within 5 years this style of device will be by far the most popular belay tool.

Do you typically rappel in autolock mode? I started out rapping in autolock mode, but found that it was rather unpredictable. Sometimes, things were relatively smooth. Other times, the device locked up hard and it was difficult to make any downward progress, even when cranking hard on a carabiner to release it. Didn't seem to be related to rope width, as it happened even when using ropes that were in the middle of the recommended width. Been rapping in regular "tuber" mode, but would like to rap in autolock mode if I could figure out how to consistently make it a bit more smooth.

topher donahue wrote: The trigger assemblies on the original camalots fell apart, nearly 100% of them, and no recall was done. Ice-axe picks used to break constantly, necessitating the "3rd tool" which almost nobody needs anymore. The next generation they made better, and so on. That's the nature of innovation. I've been using the Mega- and MicroJul and while the concept may not yet be perfect, I'd say it is better and more versatile than any other belay/rappel device and is the biggest technological advance in climbing since the grigri. My guess is that within 5 years this style of device will be by far the most popular belay tool.

topher donahue wrote: The trigger assemblies on the original camalots fell apart, nearly 100% of them, and no recall was done. Ice-axe picks used to break constantly, necessitating the "3rd tool" which almost nobody needs anymore. The next generation they made better, and so on. That's the nature of innovation. I've been using the Mega- and MicroJul and while the concept may not yet be perfect, I'd say it is better and more versatile than any other belay/rappel device and is the biggest technological advance in climbing since the grigri. My guess is that within 5 years this style of device will be by far the most popular belay tool.

I would think that one should at least inform owners of the possibility

If its limited to 2 months of production then then impact should be minimal

Better to let someone know the wire could come out using the recommended lowering procedure than having it snap off and people wondering what happened

Is it "acceptable" for climbing gear to break like this in the first year of use? And not have a notice out about it? Thats their call ...

As to innovation and assisted locking devices they are likely the future, however we havent heard of too many issues with smarts or clickups breaking

;)

topher donahue wrote:...the biggest technological advance in climbing since the grigri...

The "innovation" in this case is minimal: they took a Metolius BRD, deepened the notch a bit, and put some extra wire on it (which apparently keeps breaking off) in imitation of the unlocking mechanism of the Smart. This is incremental "improvement," not a Great Technological Leap Forward. That doesn't mean the device isn't good, but a great technological advance it isn't.

topher donahue wrote: I've been using the Mega- and MicroJul and while the concept may not yet be perfect, I'd say it is better and more versatile than any other belay/rappel device...

Elaboration, based on comparative experience with at least the Mammut Smart and CT Alpine UP would be helpful here. Meanwhile, there do seem to be a some negatives on the forums, and not just about the wires breaking off, which ought to be easy to fix. Extreme sensitivity to rope and carabiner combinations and a tendency to lock up and freeze rappels have been mentioned more than once.

rgold wrote: The "innovation" in this case is minimal: they took a Metolius BRD, deepened the notch a bit, and put some extra wire on it (which apparently keeps breaking off) in imitation of the unlocking mechanism of the Smart. This is incremental "improvement," not a Great Technological Leap Forward. That doesn't mean the device isn't good, but a great technological advance it isn't.

And of course the Trango B52, better still was the Wild Country Raptor as a concept and nothing to break either!

I guess innovation is different things to different people, removing the handle so you need to use a karabiner to abseil is innovative in some way but possibly not progress.
To see how the development has speeded along over the decades:-



The tape sling was a later addition for use when abseiling as depending on which way up the device was used you could have locking or non-locking abseiling. Most illustrations of the Antz show it upside down (including Gary Storricks) and for belaying the wire handle bit should point down.

Here´s Helmut Antz (the original inventor) showing it to Reinhold Messner at the 1987 ISPO

For how versatile the original was you can look at bmi.gv.at/cms/BMI_Alpindien…

Kai Larson wrote:Do you typically rappel in autolock mode? I started out rapping in autolock mode, but found that it was rather unpredictable. Sometimes, things were relatively smooth. Other times, the device locked up hard and it was difficult to make any downward progress, even when cranking hard on a carabiner to release it. Didn't seem to be related to rope width, as it happened even when using ropes that were in the middle of the recommended width. Been rapping in regular "tuber" mode, but would like to rap in autolock mode if I could figure out how to consistently make it a bit more smooth.

The key factors are rope diameter and fuzziness (ropes over 10mm more likely to lock); chalk on the rope; the biner - must have a rounded cross section and not an "I-beam" shape; the position of the biner.

I really didn't like how the Mega Jul rapelled. It was only smooth with new ropes. Used larger ropes and skinny halves hung up and unlocked inconsistently.

I hate the way the Smart raps in 'auto' mode. I reverse it and use it like an ATC for rapping. I prefer a cord autoblock if I want a rap backup.

When I say this concept is to me a big step forward, I'm not talking about just the MegaJul, but the Smart and any other lightweight, versatile device that works for both belay and rappel on on single or double ropes and still catches the leader if the belayer accidentally lets go of the rope. Having seen climbers dropped, belayers pass out from unrelated health issues, and falling climbers hit belayers knocking them unconscious,a device that will still stop the lead fall if the belayer fumbles is, at least to me, a huge improvement.

For the rappel mode, Mammut instructions suggest just what Matt N suggests above - rappel with the Smart not in autolocking mode, but backwards so it runs smoothly and use a friction hitch autoblock backup like a typical device. This also works best with the MegaJul - save the autolock mode for belaying and rap smoothly with the rope threaded the other way. In this mode, the MegaJul provides more friction than the Smart which is quite slippery in this mode, making the MegaJul little better for my slow and nervous rapping style. Others may like the other better. Both devices are excellent once you learn them.
from the mammut smart instructions

rgold wrote: The "innovation" in this case is minimal: they took a Metolius BRD, deepened the notch a bit, and put some extra wire on it (which apparently keeps breaking off) in imitation of the unlocking mechanism of the Smart. This is incremental "improvement," not a Great Technological Leap Forward. That doesn't mean the device isn't good, but a great technological advance it isn't. Elaboration, based on comparative experience with at least the Mammut Smart and CT Alpine UP would be helpful here. Meanwhile, there do seem to be a some negatives on the forums, and not just about the wires breaking off, which ought to be easy to fix. Extreme sensitivity to rope and carabiner combinations and a tendency to lock up and freeze rappels have been mentioned more than once.

Innovation is quite often incremental, but then it crosses a line and becomes significant. The Lowes made cams before Ray Jardine made the Friend, but then Jardine made them spring loaded and the climbing world never looked back. The big difference between the BRD/ATCGuide/etc and the Smart/MegaJul/etc is that if the belayer fumbles the rope the Smart/MegaJul/etc will stop a leader fall, while the BRD/ATCGuide/etc will not - to me that's a significant improvement.

One thing I think would make the concept even better, besides ironing out some of these kinks mentioned in this thread, (Petzl, BD, Metolious, anyone?) is to have a device like the MegaJul/Smart, but with an option to thread it also for a dynamic belay for sketchy gear and such.

topher donahue wrote: Innovation is quite often incremental, but then it crosses a line and becomes significant. The Lowes made cams before Ray Jardine made the Friend, but then Jardine made them spring loaded and the climbing world never looked back. The big difference between the BRD/ATCGuide/etc and the Smart/MegaJul/etc is that if the belayer fumbles the rope the Smart/MegaJul/etc will stop a leader fall, while the BRD/ATCGuide/etc will not - to me that's a significant improvement. One thing I think would make the concept even better, besides ironing out some of these kinks mentioned in this thread, (Petzl, BD, Metolious, anyone?) is to have a device like the MegaJul/Smart, but with an option to thread it also for a dynamic belay for sketchy gear and such.

Take a look at the Alpine UP from Climbing Technologies. It is assisted locking like the mammut smart but also has a low power mode like a ATC.

climbingtechnology.it/en-US…

A current thread on MP discussing the Alpine up and the Smart

mountainproject.com/v/alpin…

i have no problems rapping on an alpine smart on even 10mm+ ropes ... its all about using the right biner (petzl william) and the proper technique (FEED the device with your brake hand rather than just trying to let the rope slide) ... i can rap as fast as my partners with an ATC

as to the smart ... it should NOT be considered a device that "will stop" a fall without a break hand ... chances are that it may much of the time but it slips alot more than a grigri ... and on slick supple thin ropes all bets on the "self" locking are off

i can list multiple failure modes of the device where it may well NOT lock up

but dont take my word for it ... here is an incident report from the journal of mountain risk management ... youll need to do some google translate-fu from german ..

the gist of it? ... without a brake hand you may well get dropped on a smart

bergundsteigen.at/file.php/…

there have been drops and near misses with the smart around here with people using it incorrectly ... basically many use it to make up for poor belay technique as they believe it to be autolocking

and keep in mind that i am a BIG fan of the smart ... owning and using all 3 versions

you can see one of them here after 2+ years of constant use ... eventually the inner plate will wear to a sharp edge ... and wears out biners like crazy if used daily outside

heres a quick hint with alpine smarts (and ATCs) ... use one slot (the right if youre right handed) for lead belaying and the other for TR belaying ... itll even out the wear ...

;)

Thanks Climber Pat, the ALpine UP does look like a little more versatile version of the grigri, but it looks to big for me to take up longer climbs. Even the Smart is almost as big as an extra hand sized cam. A slightly refined MegaJul-type device is what I'm hoping comes next - the size and weight of an ATC, but with assisted catch and double rope rap capabilities.

And bearbreeder is dead on - none of the these devices should be considered hands off catches. Little things like your coat getting in the way of the device's rotation can prevent a full lock.

What I found with the Alpine Smart was that the ropes tended to migrate from one slot to the other when belaying. (Even when using ropes in the recommended width range.) They would tend to get caught up, forcing me to mess with them to free the snag. In my experience, the Jul devices feed much more smoothly, which is one of the reasons why I abandoned my Alpine Smarts for the Juls. (The other was the much smaller size and weight of the Juls.)

bearbreeder wrote:i have no problems rapping on an alpine smart on even 10mm+ ropes ... its all about using the right biner (petzl william) and the proper technique (FEED the device with your brake hand rather than just trying to let the rope slide) ... i can rap as fast as my partners with an ATC as to the smart ... it should NOT be considered a device that "will stop" a fall without a break hand ... chances are that it may much of the time but it slips alot more than a grigri ... and on slick supple thin ropes all bets on the "self" locking are off i can list multiple failure modes of the device where it may well NOT lock up but dont take my word for it ... here is an incident report from the journal of mountain risk management ... youll need to do some google translate-fu from german .. the gist of it? ... without a brake hand you may well get dropped on a smart bergundsteigen.at/file.php/… there have been drops and near misses with the smart around here with people using it incorrectly ... basically many use it to make up for poor belay technique as they believe it to be autolocking and keep in mind that i am a BIG fan of the smart ... owning and using all 3 versions you can see one of them here after 2+ years of constant use ... eventually the inner plate will wear to a sharp edge ... and wears out biners like crazy if used daily outside heres a quick hint with alpine smarts (and ATCs) ... use one slot (the right if youre right handed) for lead belaying and the other for TR belaying ... itll even out the wear ... ;)

I've been using the MegaJul now for several weeks. I've used it on brand new Mammut Genesis (very slick 8.5mm doubles), an old fuzzy 10.2 Edlerid, and a fairly new and slick 9.5 Mammut Infinity.

My observations:

• Lead belaying is great. Smooth, intuitive, simple to operate, and a somewhat reliable assistance on the catch. With the 8.5 doubles, I did not need to use the wire handle at all to feed rope and when the climber (125 lbs) requested a "take" the device did not initially lock down, but rather crept into lock over a period of .5 - 1 seconds. I suspect this was due to the gradual application of tension on the rope. and not a sudden fall.
• I haven't caught too many falls. I've used it twice in the gym and caught 3-4 lead falls, but other than that I've been using it outside on ice, where falling isn't exactly recommended. With 5' - 10' falls on fat gym ropes, it locks up just as you would expect any belay device to perform.
• Belaying in guide mode is no different than an ATC guide - equally tight. If you're bringing up followers all the time, your elbows will eventually complain.
• Rappelling is a pain in the ass. I haven't yet figured out a way to make it smooth. I would like to try and reverse it on my next attempt (as suggested above) and see if that improves anything.
• Lowering a climber (especially a lightweight) is also a pain in the ass, but marginally better than rappelling. It's jerky and a bit awkward.

I still think there's innovation to be done on this front. I'm curious to try an AlpineUp now. I'm going to get a William locker before I stop using my Alpine Smart entirely and give it one last shot.

Here is two tips for everybody who is complaining about the MegaJul´s rappelling properties:
- The standard rappell mode is using the device flipped (thumb loop pointing towards you). This mode always works smoothly. Back it up with a prusik. Rappell like with any other tubing device. I personally use this mode at least 90% of the time.

When should I use/can I use the device in auto-block mode for rappells?
- The device works smoothly in auto-block mode when you are using half-ropes.
- It works on single ropes, too, BUT only if the rope hangs totally straight. The rope must not run over an edge. When you thread it through the anchors it must be going straight to you - in a straight line. The less straight it is the more clunky it will be. In my personal experience this is crucial. One good example would be the rappell route on Castleton Tower.

I hope these tips will save you some time and hassle.