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ACE: Eldo fixed hardware application vote

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

For your consideration:

Pins from Werk Supp

Regarding the history of Eldo, I simply looked at the incorrect FA information listed for Peanuts here on MP. (Tony - you should update that to FFA since it's your route submission.) I am not ignorant of the history involved.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Gregger Man wrote:Yup. Somebody will always be pissed off. The park ranger asked that the Werk Supp pins be removed in an ACE meeting. It is their park but volunteers do the maintenance (in this instance - Mike McHugh does far more work than us.) There will always be gray areas because of this. Commence with the pitchforks.
It is NOT their park.
It is OUR park. We pay the fees, they get the salary, we are the customer and the owner.
Even if done at the behest of the park climbing ranger, we are to have our input.
Greg, can you and Joe consider coming over to my place for a beer or to the next BCC meeting to chat? I could also meet you in Boulder & I'm buying. I'd love to have a face-to-face on this.
Joseph Crotty · · Carbondale, CO · Joined Nov 2002 · Points: 1,903

I also pulled both pins of P1 of Northcutt Start to Bastille and inspected and re-drove them.

My intent was to pull a few pins on different routes that were easily accessible, P1, inspect the pins for quality and then re-drive them to get an overall health measure on those fixed pins. I also assessed free climbing gear placements to either supplement or replace the pins and photo documented everything.

ACE FHRC Guidelines (i.e., Section 3.4.b) lay out the ground rules for like for like replacement of pitons. They can only be replaced with a permit issued by the Park. Per section 1.1.b removing bolts or pitons requires an ACE application. In the case of the Werk Supp's P1 pins they were deemed so dangerous the Park had asked ACE on at least two occasions I can recollect to remove them. Keep in mind someone died on P1 a few years prior and the Park was not interested in another accident. Both pitons pulled were in very bad shape. Greg and the Park made a snap decision based on safety and spirit of the law.

The water gets a bit muddier when testing piton placements. If the piton disintegrates or the rock breaks during removal your in a bind as you just illegally removed the pin without a Park issued permit in hand to replace it ASAP. This is exactly what happened to me when I tested the first pin on P1 of Jules Verne. In the future I would not test any pin in Eldo without a permit and replacement pin in hand. By the way that piton on Jules Verne came out very easily and would have resulted in a ground fall in the near future. It was replaced a week after I pulled it with a like for like permit issued by Eldo Park staff.

Jules Verne P1 piton #1. Pulled and replaced as part of like for like replacement. Black Diamond #1 Knife Balde.

The golden area of aid and free climbing in Eldo ended long ago leaving in it's beautiful wake a myriad of fixed hardware dilemmas.

Glenn Schuler · · Monument, Co. · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,330

Somebody must have pissed in Nate's cheerios this morning.

Thanks Gregger Man for removing those obviously POS pins from a popular trade route, as well as all the other positive things you do for the climbing community on your own time.

Wyatt Payne · · Littleton CO · Joined Apr 2005 · Points: 495

Please leave the pins alone. Many of us have had our asses saved literally by some soft iron that was hammered in by Kor or another pioneer when our gear ripped out and theirs held. Yes expansion bolts are more confidence inspiring, but Eldo is and never has been a place where climbers that are weak between the ears go to test themselves. Eldorado is a very special place because of the confidence, ability, and preparation necessary to climb there. I never want to see that change. Be ready to confront the actual challenge the rock provides in the moment you are there without giving yourself the excuse of saying someone else had it easier, or safer when they did it. That could be the greatest moment of your life and you are missing it because you are mentally off some place crying that it is harder for you than it was for them. Climbing is selfish in many ways. Given that, you climb a route because it signifies something to you and the people before you. Risk is a huge part of that equation.

If a pin rips out then lets try to protect the scar with some nut trickery, or cam antics until it is voted to replace it or not with a pin or bolt on a case by case basis.

If every pin that is in Eldo is replaced with a bolt. I think we can all agree that the place we all Love and call home will be substantially more tame. That is not what I am looking for in climbing, and if most people take a hard look inside themselves they probably aren't either. I have never wanted to have the lion that is Eldorado Canyon tethered to the ground so I could confront it in total safety.

Food for thought: Thank God no one found a way to bang in a pin half way through the run out on Jules Vern. Because if they had we would have long since questioned that pins integrity and replaced it with a big fat bolt. So now you have to ask yourself would it be even close to the experience that we have on that route today? NOPE

Potentially swapping Pins for bolts is not even close to an even trade. This fact is why people are so excited to have a bolt instead of a pin. It absolutely changes the mastery required to do the climb. Eldo is Eldo because it requires a massive skill set to climb hard on-sight. I want that to remain to be the case in Eldo because it is important to me as a climber to be able to have that adventure where I have to be ready to truly handle the challenges of a climb. We owe it to future generations to preserve Eldo as a place where climbers can have that experience for themselves. If they don't want that, or their ego can't handle not climbing at their absolute gym grade maximum then there are plenty of places where they can safely step up full number grades at a time. Eldorado does not need to become that place. Preserve the Experience that is Eldorado Canyon.

beth bennett · · boulder · Joined May 2007 · Points: 5

I'm one of those long-time Eldorado climbers, more than 40 yrs now- hard to believe. I belayed some of the FFAs in the early 70s and did plenty of FFFAs in Eldorado. None of us really thought too much about any of the fixed gear - 1/4" bolts, pins, bashies, etc. Now we have no qualms about yanking old quarter inchers or even replacing the aging 3/8' bolts from the 80s. So I'm puzzled by this attitude of pins as historic. Entropy happens to everything and we need to realize that and accept it. if you want to hang on to the historic pin, take a picture, put it in the visitor center, but accept that it's not in the same condition it was on the day it was placed. If you need proof, there is an excellent series of experiments on pin placements and reliability summarized at

thebmc.co.uk/is-there-a-fut…

I know a few people who pulled pins falling on them in Eldorado and got pretty beat up. If it's possible to yank the pin - and admittedly for some of them this won't be possible - and leave a good natural placement, why not?

TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65

It's traditional climbing. It's not supposed to be 100% safe, that is the appeal for many people. The idea that we should remove pins because they might be dangerous is the same argument that we should remove all the loose rock in Eldo because it might be dangerous. Pins, loose rock, fixed nuts, weather, old bolts, etc., is all part of the Eldo experience. If you want it to be safe where climbers don't have to evaluate the quality of their protection, go sport climbing on any of the 1,000+ routes between Boulder and Golden.

The idea that pins should be removed because they are of poor quality is a strange argument. Any trad climber (especially those that climb in Eldo) worth their salt can evaluate the quality of a pin and adequately place their own protection as back up. Just as any trad climber must learn to negotiate loose rock, weather, and other objective hazards, fixed pro is just another factor in the ever-changing equation of "How safe am I?" constantly going through a traditional climber's head.

I don't think just because someone inexperienced is willing to trust their life to a crappy pin in Eldorado warrants removal. I'd argue anyone willing to indiscriminately clip a pin of unknown quality and view it as a bolt isn't fit to be climbing in Eldorado. Anyone who does this probably isn't qualified to place adequate back-up gear or evaluate any of the other 100's of objective hazards that are present throughout the canyon.

I see two arguments here. Keep the pins because (1) they are of historical value and (2) they may, in some cases, offer some protection. The arguments to remove the pins is that many are of low quality that could give people a false sense of security and are in fact a hazard to unqualified climbers. Let me be clear, this is less a situation where I find the arguments to keep the pins overwhelmingly persuasive or compelling. It is more a case of I find the arguments to remove the pins to be overstated. Eldo is not the place to try and remove objective hazards and I would argue it is those very hazards that attract many of us to it. The pins simply add to the character of the canyon and the adventure that is inherent in climbing there. Removing them in the interest of protecting potentially incompetent leaders is an argument I simply do not find to be persuasive at all.

Joseph Crotty · · Carbondale, CO · Joined Nov 2002 · Points: 1,903

The PDF's for the two pin removal applications can be seen at the below links. Listing them in this thread also as it's not real obvious how to view them when your voting.

Peanuts - Fixed Pin Removal

The Bulge - Fixed Pin Removal

To vote you just have to create a login on the ACE site.

Wayne Crill · · an Altered State · Joined Jan 2003 · Points: 375
Steve Levin wrote: Whether one considers them historical relics, familiar protection, or in-situ garbage, correctly assessing a fixed pin requires quite a bit of experience, and without a hammer, a bit of faith. This is all well and good for experienced climbers. I think a question to pose is: today, when most climbers start in the gym or sport climbing and few have ever placed a piton, are unnecessary fixed pins on moderate routes a false security that could lead to a beginning trad climber being killed?
Well, typically, I think Steve has brought up the crux question here, or hit the proverbial piton on the head. I worry that this apparently reasonble question/concern is the beginning of a slippery slope down to the lowest common denominator. My answer to Steve's question is that it is the responsibility of "climbers who start in the gym or sport climbing" (or anywhere) to learn the skills appropriate to the climbs/areas/endeavors they undertake. In general "we" don't add bolts where natural gear is available, because we expect people to learn to place natural gear in order to safely lead these climbs. I completely agree with those who have reminded us all that climbing is inherently dangerous and you can't dumb it down to remove the danger, no mater what. I realize there is a slippery slope here but I support leaving fixed pins unless they block natural placements (or maybe you can remove them by hand....). Yes there is a danger that someone might completely trust a fixed pin, not back it up, fall, and the pin might pull and they might die. But the same can be said about any natural gear placement really.....
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Wayne Crill wrote: My answer to Steve's question is that it is the responsibility of "climbers who start in the gym or sport climbing" (or anywhere) to learn the skills appropriate to the climbs/areas/endeavors they undertake.
Humor me a bit here, but I think your answer is a bit catch-22. Suppose someone started to learn climbing exclusively at Eldo. Just how is this said person going to learn the skills appropriate for the area? You can't go around pounding pitons for practice at Eldo, so how are you suppose to evaluate its soundness? And in a larger context, pitons are sort of becoming relics anyway. New piton placement, at least in non alpine environment, is being discouraged. So how does one learn to place them. And what significant use is the skill set for a new climber besides evaluate existing pitons? It's almost like carburetors and COBOL: sure, at one point servicing carburetors and programming in COBOL were essential skills, but do we really need to artificially perpetuate their existence? Even NASCAR gave the boot to carburetors...
Wayne Crill · · an Altered State · Joined Jan 2003 · Points: 375

I have a question for ACE.

It is my understanding that regarding new route bolt applications that official public input via applcation commentary through the ACE site is but one of a number of factors that goes into the decision of wheather to grant permission to use botls for a new FA. I have always assumed that there is actually a numerical algorythm that takes into account different factors and pruduces an apparently objective final decision re the application. Thus, overwhelming public support via voting does not necessarily guarantee bolt placement approval. Is this true?

What are the formal rules regarding final decisions for this pin removal application process? Because the public has actually spoken (not here but by people who take the time to examine and vote through the ACE site). I hope(if it continues) that the current 85-90% voting AGAINST the 'fixed pin removal' for Penauts and the Bulge will be accepted by ACE as the wishes of the active park users and not 'overruled' but the subjective wishes of certain individuals in positions of power.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

I rarely climb in Eldo so maybe I'm missing something.

If a fixed pin isn't needed for protection and is just being left in situ to decay, why isn't it just another bit of tat? Or more accurately, a piece of trash?

It's not a a big deal, but I can understand why the park might want to minimize the amount of unnecessary climbing gear in place.

ChefMattThaner · · Lakewood, co · Joined May 2013 · Points: 246
Mark E Dixon wrote:I rarely climb in Eldo so maybe I'm missing something. If a fixed pin isn't needed for protection and is just being left in situ to decay, why isn't it just another bit of tat? Or more accurately, a piece of trash? It's not a a big deal, but I can understand why the park might want to minimize the amount of unnecessary climbing gear in place.
Because there is a good chance that "tat" and "trash" you are referring to was placed by the likes of Layton Kor, Pat Ament or Jim Erickson. The park has tried very hard to preserve these routes intact as possible from these very historical first ascents.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
ChefMattThaner wrote: Because there is a good chance that "tat" and "trash" you are referring to was placed by the likes of Layton Kor, Pat Ament or Jim Erickson. The park has tried very hard to preserve these routes intact as possible from these very historical first ascents.
If the pins are so historic, then they should be documented, removed and protected rather than being left to decay and disappear.

It's not obvious to me that preserving the route is the same as preserving the hardware.
ChefMattThaner · · Lakewood, co · Joined May 2013 · Points: 246
Mark E Dixon wrote: If the pins are so historic, then they should be documented, removed and protected rather than being left to decay and disappear. It's not obvious to me that preserving the route is the same as preserving the hardware.
This is the other side of the coin for sure. Definitely a point I have personally wrestled with while climbing in Eldo. I think as local climbers we have a slightly selfish form a nostalgia when it comes to these fixed pins. Most of us will clip these relics while on these historic routes, not necessarily for protection but just for nostalgia sake. Personally I get a kick out of clipping a pin driven by Kor himself standing in probably the same exact stance decades later.

However, as you said Mark, wouldn't it be more historically prudent to remove these pins and preserve them in a museum away from the corrosive effects of nature??? Wouldn't more generations of climbers get to see these historical artifacts if we did that? Or would it completely take away any historical significance by taking it from its place and putting it on a shelf where climbing gear certainly doesn't belong??

This is a question I don't think there will ever be a consensus on. Some people think removing the pins will no longer offer the same experience as the FA and therefore ruining the route and the significance of the gear. While others think leaving these pieces out to erode away with time and abuse is just simply negligent.

Personally if it came to a vote I would probably side with leaving them in place since they are now part of those routes I have climbed. Still not sure if that is the right answer but it's my answer.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
ChefMattThaner wrote: This is the other side of the coin for sure. Definitely a point I have personally wrestled with while climbing in Eldo. I think as local climbers we have a slightly selfish form a nostalgia when it comes to these fixed pins. Most of us will clip these relics while on these historic routes, not necessarily for protection but just for nostalgia sake. Personally I get a kick out of clipping a pin driven by Kor himself standing in probably the same exact stance decades later. However, as you said Mark, wouldn't it be more historically prudent to remove these pins and preserve them in a museum away from the corrosive effects of nature??? Wouldn't more generations of climbers get to see these historical artifacts if we did that? Or would it completely take away any historical significance by taking it from its place and putting it on a shelf where climbing gear certainly doesn't belong?? This is a question I don't think there will ever be a consensus on. Some people think removing the pins will no longer offer the same experience as the FA and therefore ruining the route and the significance of the gear. While others think leaving these pieces out to erode away with time and abuse is just simply negligent. Personally if it came to a vote I would probably side with leaving them in place since they are now part of those routes I have climbed. Still not sure if that is the right answer but it's my answer.
The past is a prison.
pfwein Weinberg · · Boulder, CO · Joined May 2006 · Points: 71

A lot of assumptions about other climbers here, e.g.,

Steve Levin wrote: These are good points, although I know many climbers who've been climbing decades and have never placed a pin.
ChefMattThaner wrote: Most of us will clip these relics while on these historic routes, not necessarily for protection but just for nostalgia sake. Personally I get a kick out of clipping a pin driven by Kor himself standing in probably the same exact stance decades later.
Steve L--(I assume there was meant to be a "don't" in your quote, based on what it was responding to) Maybe you don't know them, but I don't think most recreational climbers (and "professional" climbers of the sport climbing / bouldering type) who started climbing 20 years ago or so around here have ever placed a piton. Why would they?

Chef Matt--I don't think you speak for "most of us." Nor do I, but I rarely clip pitons when good removable-gear placements are nearby. I'm guessing I'm in the majority among at least somewhat-experienced climbers, but I could be wrong.

I'm picking on these stray comments to illustrate that I don't think there's anything close to a consensus about what to do about pitons in Eldo, and a lot of that may be that we don't even agree on things that may shape our view on what to do about them. (As just another random example, someone above compared pins to loose rock in Eldo. Whether that's a good analogy or not, I don't know if the poster is aware that many loose rocks have in fact been intentionally removed in Eldo, which likely has saved some lives.)

My belief--pitons have basically no place in modern free climbing (especially of the moderate flavor, I can't really speak as to what the experts are doing). Remove them all, replace some with bolts, depending on other protection opportunities. I'm sure that is not a consensus view now; we'll see what the future holds.
ChefMattThaner · · Lakewood, co · Joined May 2013 · Points: 246
pfwein wrote:A lot of assumptions about other climbers here, e.g., Chef Matt--I don't think you speak for "most of us." Nor do I, but I rarely clip pitons when good removable-gear placements are nearby. I'm guessing I'm in the majority among at least somewhat-experienced climbers, but I could be wrong.
Well maybe you are right and I am jaded. Although I do see a MAJORITY of the climbers in Eldo clipping at least some of these pins WHILE I AM THERE climbing. So maybe it's just the people that like to climb the same days I do, but I always see a lot of pin clipping while in the park.
rob.calm · · Loveland, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 630
Steve Levin wrote: (I can't think of any Eldo moderate where the leader might "go for it" to a fixed pin and get into trouble, although I'm sure they're out there).
Second pitch West Overhang.
\
rob.calm
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
rob.calm wrote: Second pitch West Overhang. \ rob.calm
Also the last pitch of Ruper.

And as a member of the "relatively new climber who started climbing in the gym and hasn't been climbing in Eldo that long" demographic, I've always just assumed that all fixed pins are suspect and backed them up when possible. I've also always assumed that falling in Eldo in general is a bad idea, especially when unsure of the protection. Just because someone is a gumby doesn't mean they aren't aware of it :)
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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