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Removing rust from an ice screw?

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
rocknice2 wrote: By far the worst are those Grivel sharpening machines. They probably won't change their screws tooth design only because those machines can't make a modern tooth. Plus in the hands of a bad operator or a well used wheel they burn the shit out of the screws.
That's true. I bought some used Grivels once that were "freshly sharpened" using said machine. The teeth were dark blue (indicating SERIOUS overheating).
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

Kirby1013, saying you can test the screw at the bottom of a climb and OK if 100 feet up ignores the likelihood that ice conditions often change and can quickly change. If you are smashing away thru chandelier ice in order to get at better ice, that's hassle enough. But plenty of routes "suddenly" show up that have "bullet proof" ice (as Leubben points out in his book, this is ice so hard that you pretty much have to be a super strong expert ice climber (as Alex Lowe was) to fire screws one after the other...after the other....after the other, ad naseum). Bullet proof ice is where you REALLY can feel the difference between so-so ice screws that you've sharpened at home over a cold one. Vertical Greenland ice comes to mind.

Sure, I touch mine up too but as someone pointed out, it doesn't take much to drill a screw in only to touch rock. My experience is that unless you are lucky and/or experienced enough to back it out quickly, once you've even touched rock (a sickening feeling with a ($60 22 cm), you can tell when you get home that you've even slightly bent or dulled the tips. Sure, just about any screw will fly in of its own accord at Ouray or other aerated ice, however, when you're on the real deal, that's when you (I) like sharp screws. I rarely send my screws to Jason unless back from a big Canadian trip and many are trashed.

To the point re: my leaving my screws in my pack on the way home, you must not have read what I posted. I said the first thing back to the car is that I dry my screws and then my crampons. I'm not anal about it then but when I get home, I pay more attention to them. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Rather than follow you down the hole you're digging I'll post this. Yet again don't tell me you can't sharpen screws yourself and those screws be sharp.

youtube.com/watch?v=6VFaW0G…

I did like the spray! Hey, I climbed vertical ice on Uranus. Does that mean I know what I'm talking about? Nope.

I would like to apologize to all screw sharpening services. I don't mean to say you guys are not needed. A Nice Screw performs miracles. I've seen his work after being sent a real horror show. Amazing!

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

I'll begin by saying that I do not have all the answers to these comments, far from it. They are based on my own experience & climbing with uber-climbers from whom I've learned a lot. I'm not the expert here.

I think we're getting too academic and/or anal about this. Rocknice (see above) shows how complicated an excellent screw looks like. He's right: it's the "undercuts" and slants off the teeth (and they make a difference) from each main point that are very difficult to bring back to life by trying to sharpen this on your own. You can sharpen the very tips and that might be sufficient for you; I do that myself.

Additionally, I like the longer cutting surface that Jason puts on his. Now THAT, to me, makes a difference in starting the screw. A good stab at waist height, screw it in, clip and I'm outta there. (I think too many people reach too high in placing screws; it often results in "pushing" your body away from the ice. Plus, then you have to pull the rope up to clip higher. Cummulative, lots of energy, marginalized safety notwithstanding. For rock climbers, placing higher pro is a plus; in my book, driving ice screws at waist height, close to the body, has less chance of "levering" one away from the ice. But that's an ideal and I've placed plenty of screws at different heights, including probably firing a few into my boots or thigh thinking, 'now, I've a bomber screw" (tease).

Like many in this string, I'm sure we all have our own experience and preferences. I'm dumb enough to climb myself into boiler plate ice such as the Wickersham Wall on Denali. For me....I'm sure there are those who disagree, I can tell the difference between a sharpened screw (and I'm not just talking about the tips but the whole deal as pointed out by Rocknice. The "slants" are there for a reason. And lest I appear to be touting Jason's work as the be all, end all, I'm not. There are other pro sharpeners who can bring the whole deal back to life. Whoever in this string recommended using a diamond polisher is right on & I recommend doing it under a large glass, articulating arm magnifying glass (Home Depot). But frankly, I don't do that anymore .... not necessary.

I also suspect many in this string.....or those reading it....would agree that a 100 foot pitch of ice has the potential to change conditions, sometimes dramatically. Blue or yellow ice (good stuff) to rotten stuff and in between. The first 6 inches of layered ice might be rotten, then giving way to good ice and vice versa. Doesn't mean you have to change from "dullish" screws to "like new" screws, it usually means you clear away at the bad until you find good ice (if it's there). If not, try elsewhere or better still, "man/woman up" and keep going, saving energy but chancing a longer run out. But this has nothing to do with sharp v. "sharp-ish" screws unless you run into boiler plate, then I can tell the diff between a super sharp screw v. the "home tuned" job.

Re: your stubbies, good luck....I carry one only. You might read Craig Leubben's work on testing various lengths of screws; when I worked with him testing these puppies, we walked away being no fans of stubbies (but at aerated Ouray, the only good screws are Belcourt's "experimental" (one off...NFS) screw that's about 2 ft. long). No doubt, there are times when I wish I had more than one stubby, however, if it's chossy, esp. topping out, as in Hyalite, I'll slam my Spectre in with the knowledge that it's really a placebo and won't hold much.

A visual reminder: Rocknice's photo (above) showing the different angles you have to mess with. The diamond drill (i.e., a Dremel) gets you close but at $8/screw, why not send them to a pro sharpener? I have better things to do than screw with my screws.

_____________________

As a separate matter, I'm curious as to how many reading this string agrees that 100 ft of ice has the potential to change conditions, sometimes in a very short distance.

Enough said.

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

This thread has gotten of track but a good discussion none the less.

Yes ice changes quite rapidly at times within a single pitch. There are two main reasons to keep your screws razor sharp. One the most obvious is high performance especially under adverse conditions. Two is adverse positions. Try placing a screw way out left or over your head, totally doable if your screws are razor sharp.

The trick to a high performance screw is to get the teeth to bore a clean starter hole fast. The cleaner the hole the faster the threads come into play and you can let go of the screw. If it's dull it takes longer to dig an open pit.

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

Ditto Rocknice...well said; couldn't agree more.

I also like the teeth sub-profile you point out from the other pro shop (icescrewsharpening). Really good; will have to try them end of season or when I trash the next screw. He's putting that "crescent" (or half circle) at the bottom of the tooth for a reason; would like to know why.....intriguing. What is your experience w/this?

________________

Re: silicone v. WD 40, I go with silicone, esp. if you are climbing dense, bullet ice and/or the barrel gets jammed hard with ice, necessitating ridding the screw of the ice for the next lead. I've found that silicone can take "quite a reaming" with a Candella and keep on ticking. Sometimes, the best way to clear the barrel of the ice is to put the screw inside your jacket. I prefer avoiding this cuz it usually cuts my clothing and besides, you now have a popsicle or wet/dampness on your clothes. If the second is handed screws (even one) that is barrel-jammed, they usually aren't too happy. I'm not. You can try blowing the ice from the screw but depending on temps, one can stick their lips on the metal and blow. I've done that ... girlfriend didn't like it.

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

I am icescrewsharpening.com
That radius is just the size of the end mill I use. :-)

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

Rocknice2,

By your excellent comments, I figured you must be icescrewsharpening. Your screw ends are killer....probably the best I've seen.... I like the slant angles. They seem to be more aggressive than Jason's (A Nice Screw) who also does a great job but his back pitch is shallower. Am sending you a dozen or more. Warbonnet.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
rocknice2 wrote:This thread has gotten off track but a good discussion none the less.
Oh, I don't know.. It seems like more of the usual stuff that goes on around here.

Warbonnet, First nobody's saying ice conditions don't change. I told the OP to try and fire in the screw in question before doing anything. We never saw the screw and the OP wasn't sure what a sharp screw looks like. So instead of wasting time and money sending a good screw away I said to go test it out. I mean what if the screw's brand new but got some moisture on it. You can test out a screw at the bottom and know if it's sharp or not. Come on, placing a dull screw in hero ice is PITA. He'll know if the screw needs work. Then he can make a choice.

When I said I'm not following you down the rabbit hole I was talking about sharpening screws. We could spend days spraying about where we climb and write long paragraphs on everything but the argument at hand. Everything that validates our opinion. Warbonnet, we aren't going to agree on this so it seems silly to write the same thing over and over again. I respect you for saying you're not an expert. I say that quite a bit myself since I'm not one either. I have no doubt the screws you get back form rocknice are fantastic to place. On the other hand no matter what you write you can't convince me that my screws take any less time or energy to place than a screw that's sent away.

Nobody's saying sending screws out to be sharpened is a bad idea. You said you don't have the time. A great reason to send screws to rocknice. Just saying I can do it myself with the right instruction. All this discussion does make me wanna send a couple out though. Haha.
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

Last comment..promise. Get as good as Guy Lacelle (rest in peace) and free solo. Then, no worries about ice screws.

If you haven't seen the mini-documentary on Guy, check this out:

youtube.com/watch?v=xCHOOXd…

Incredible climber with an ironic death.

Long, but good discussion.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Last comment? Don't say that! I guess I'll go out and actually scratch around... Unplug haha..

Excellent discussion! The result should be a review of diferent sharpening techniques on Danes blog coldthistle.

Greg Gavin · · SLC, UT · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 888

Now I know you guys are a tough opinionated crowd, but what do you all think about the new Petzl Lim'Ice?

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Greg G wrote:Now I know you guys are a tough opinionated crowd, but what do you all think about the new Petzl Lim'Ice?
Tough, no opinionated maybe a little. Especially if we're talking ice tools.

I checked one out at the Mountaineer about a week ago. I think they're great for someone who doesn't know anything about sharpening and/or doesn't have all the necessary tools and vise to do the job. The number 1 thing people say to me after I sharpen their first screw is "I didn't know it was so simple" People also say it's too time consuming. Haha.. I think Lim ice will help the inexperienced sharpen a dull screw and not worry something will be ruined. Someone also wrote that the Lim Ice would be good for a road trip. Another said it sharpens the screw to Petzls profile. There's lots of information circulating around NEice and here to check out but if you want my opinion I think the Petzl Lim Ice could come in handy especially if you rock the new Petzl screws. You have to take great care that you file at right angles and Petzl has taken care of that.
Matt Touchette · · Cody, WY · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 117

Allow ice screws to dry at home without the caps on.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Ice Climbing
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