backing up a rappel with prussic

My two cents: I girth a personal anchor chain (NOT a daisy chain) into the strong points of my harness. I put my ATC on the firs loop as to extend the distance between me and the device, and I use the last loop to clip into the anchor with a locking biner. I then put a friction hitch below the ATC, I use the Kliemheist. This works really well even with a thin rope diameter, I often use 8mm twins. Having the device extended means the hitch could jam up the device if all else fails. It also means that you can rest on the hitch without it jamming up the device. You can also control your rappel and the hitch with the same hand in case you need to free ropes or navigate the rappel.

Gargano wrote:Belay device extension à la Petzl.

This is pretty much what I do on multi-pitch rappels. Really good for clipping the anchor at the next belay station.

When cragging on short routes and I can see both ends are on the ground, I don't usually bother extending or adding a backup. One exception might be if I plan on hanging out to remove a stuck piece.

Just skimmed through the thread and there are several things I'd like to add. Forgive me if this has been mentioned.
1. Dyneema melts at extremely low temps and is not the best choice for friction hitches. You can ruin them easily. Use cord or nylon runner.

2. Dyneema is static and will fail at lower loads than nylon and should not be used as the extension especially is using it to clip to an anchor as in the Petzl set up. Use a nylon runner.
Watch DMM test both materials. dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/h…

3. The belay loop is full strength leg loops are generally not making the loop the better choice for the attachment of the friction hitch.

The belay loop area already has a lot happening. The leg loop does not have to be full strength for this purpose. Leg loop is the best choice. You leave the cord and biner on it and forget about it until you actually need it. The best method.

saguaro sandy wrote:The belay loop area already has a lot happening. The leg loop does not have to be full strength for this purpose. Leg loop is the best choice. You leave the cord and biner on it and forget about it until you actually need it. The best method.

Disagree with "best method". Like Mr. Levin, I girth hitch a 48" or 24" (single pitch) through swami and leg loop, rappel on the extension with a backup off the belay loop.

This is after a good many years of no backup or the old fashioned "leg wrap"-which sucks, but if you aren't going to use backups, is worth having in the tool box.

If you climb in a harness with adjustable leg loops, your system can get messed up, real quick, and leave you in the pickle described above in the thread. If you are concerned about the belay loop having "a lot happening" there are harnesses with 2 belay loops.

In practice I've found that the leg loop prusik method also tends to pull a bit to the side when engaged; if you were KO'ed by rockfall/ice or in general loss of consciousness, you don't want to be pitching and yawing...JMO

Keep it safe out there folks. Close your systems and weight/test the rig before you unclip direct.

bevans wrote:Extending the belay/rappel device, placing an autoblock on the brake strands, and attaching the autoblock to the belay loop is considered the current standard method for backing up your rappel.

YES YES YES

So simple, so fast, so secure…….and the auto block (also called third hand) will not get sucked into the rappel device….. neither will hair, shirts etc.

This method is has been our standard for a while when I'm guiding.

PS: Why attach the third hand to one leg loop? Its cumbersome and awkward, not easy to switch brake hand back and forth, and the leg loops on some harnesses may not be full strength rated…..

My 2 cents….

A lot happening is : tie in figure 8 , anchoring system, belay device, rope flaked out. I don't need another piece hanging off in there.

I have done leg loop method which was taught to me by Craig Lueben. Never had a problem with it.

Sure, it doesn't hurt...but a leg loop doesn't need to be "full strength" for this application. Loads to the attachment point of the backup are relatively low.

Einstein gets the last laugh

saguaro sandy wrote:A lot happening is : tie in figure 8 , anchoring system, belay device, rope flaked out. I don't need another piece hanging off in there.

If you are in rappel then none of that is going on.
Sling girth hitched through waist and leg loops. friction hitch in belay loop.

Loads are low on the leg loop but what if you miss clipping both ropes when setting up the rappel which has happened. Then you are only on your leg loop.

Craig Lueben's set up WAS the standard however this has evolved.

Here is a Video of the Current IFMGA/UIAA standard. (ya i know what do those guys know)
vimeo.com/m/54302232

Watch and discuss.

vimeo.com/54302232

I wanted to chime in on the new skool B.S. as I see it. the whole ride your knot to the bottom. is complete bullshit. it's there for if you fuck up need to hang not because if you panic and grab the rope.
the whole it will get tangled and cause a fuck up is bullshit too. if you tie your autoblock too long it caught in your device. Want to know something else if you back up off a leg loop on quick release buckle it can cause it to open if you turn. I've had it happen to me.
anyways both will work great if done properly. Just like anything in climbing if you don't know how to use it right you shouldn't do it. I use an autoblock when I extend a rappel or am take two down on one device. I use above the device when regular rappel. That way I can switch brake hands if needed, or if I have to ascend I'm already set up to. My preffered knot is the klemheist on this. each has it's place and you should understand it's strengths and weaknesses.

Topher42 wrote:I wanted to chime in on the new skool B.S. as I see it. the whole ride your knot to the bottom. is complete bullshit. it's there for if you fuck up need to hang not because if you panic and grab the rope. the whole it will get tangled and cause a fuck up is bullshit too. if you tie your autoblock too long it caught in your device. Want to know something else if you back up off a leg loop on quick release buckle it can cause it to open if you turn. I've had it happen to me. anyways both will work great if done properly. Just like anything in climbing if you don't know how to use it right you shouldn't do it. I use an autoblock when I extend a rappel or am take two down on one device. I use above the device when regular rappel. That way I can switch brake hands if needed, or if I have to ascend I'm already set up to. My preffered knot is the klemheist on this. each has it's place and you should understand it's strengths and weaknesses.

Huh? Is there a decoder ring or cypher we should be using?

cdec wrote: Huh? Is there a decoder ring or cypher we should be using?

I think you have to hire a Navajo code talker for that one.

Once I set my stuff for climb it stays except the rack gets rotated. I am not going to rearrange my gear just to get on rappel. I will try to extend it onto my pas. That does not require much effort.