Strong bolts don't always make good anchors!!

Boissal wrote: Was that crag bolted with a 4' ruler to determine bolt spacing? I'd be more worried of z-clipping than at the gym...

Awesome, isn't it?
Actually, Mike is over 10 feet tall so its an optical illusion.

John Wilder wrote: the proper method is whatever is safest for cleaning the draws. on anything mildly overhanging, the best method is to lower and clean. many route developers are either cheap, lazy, or not thinking ahead when installing anchors. I see great pro bolt installation and crap anchors on top all the time. one example is what nicelegs posted in his original post. if you're developing a sport cliff, the anchors should all have lower offs if the routes overhang. rappelling off fixed gear is a noble idea, but in practice it doesn't make sense in many cases. which is why installing anchors for lowering off is so important. especially for future maintenance.

Well call me old school then I guess. I have no issue with rappelling down and cleaning my draws as I go. Unless its ridiculously overhung I have no problem taking an 60 seconds to clean my draws on rap. I personally have replaced far too many worn top anchors in my short rigging career. I wouldn't have asuch of an issue with perfectly competent climbers forgoing this process if more of them also would pony up and do some of the work. Not that you or nivelegs don't already contribute this way just in general.

nicelegs wrote: This aint the kitchen cookie, yer out of your element. New member of the Front Range 5.7 Mafia?

Hell yeah, everyone knows anything worth climbing is 5.7 or lower, duh!

Besides I need something with belay ledges big enough for my propane fired Wok and at least two butcher block tables if you want anything of michelin star quality out of me.

grabs the corn, and a mocha

Iowa....doh!

mussy hooks definately hold up to wear and tear but have their drawbacks. theyre so bulky that the backside of the hook wears grooves in the rock unless its a steep route, kind of like mini snow angel wings...which is no good.

Also the gates are pretty flimsy, adding a steel carabiner in between is kind of clever but youd have to add another anchor bolt.

whats wrong with a couple steel carabiners paired with a quickink and chain in this scenario?

Mike Lane wrote:And you can get them from Home Depot too, which seems to sell an 'imitation of the real thing' with everything else they have in that store. I have had so much of their shit fall apart and break on me in my daily business that in no way would I ever buy something there to fully trust my life to. It s a phobia of mine, Ace and Lowes are ok for some reason.

That's interesting Mike. While I make sure to get my bolts from a reputable source, I have always bought my chain at the local hardware store...but perhaps I should be being a bit more careful. Can you tell anything by reading the 'Made in XXXX' label? Do you have a brand of chain etc. that you prefer in your experience?

Brian Scoggins wrote: 3) I think "Joe, you live in Iowa, your point is invalid." is just about the funniest thing I've seen on here in a good long while. Keep up the good work!

Yeah, from my perspective that was just me (a born and raised midwestern/flatlander) teasing a fellow midwesterner. Perhaps my sarcasm did not translate though.

nicelegs wrote: What pisses me off is coming upon these , placed at the same height, 12-18" apart from each other. This twists the bejesus out of your rope no matter how much you fuck with it.

nicelegs, ignore all those annoying wannabe sport climbers (like Butler) and their holier-than-thou attitudes.

Yes, I agree with you. But have you noticed that sometimes this set-up does not twist the rope? I don't know if this was an intended design feature, but when both ring-anchors are placed so the weighted rings do not touch the rock, the rings will spin as you are lowered, and will not twist the rope. This also spreads out the wear on the ring evenly, tremendously prolonging its life. The problem is that they are rarely placed that way.

In Europe I saw many anchors, with two bolts placed vertically and connected with chain, that had one fat quick-link at the bottom. Thus, when it wore out the quick-link could be easily replaced for a very low cost and no one spent any extra money on a ring-anchor. I saw several parties with a quick-link on their harness.

The trick, of course, is getting the perfect bolt spacing to equalize the load.

John Byrnes wrote: I saw several parties with a quick-link on their harness. The trick, of course, is getting the perfect bolt spacing to equalize the load.

nah, the trick is getting several parties to have a quicklink on their harness!

there would not be a problem if climbers would be better stewards, and not rely on the FAs. Take ownership of your crags! if the setup twists the rope, put a few more links on it. if the links wear out, replace them.

Darren Mabe wrote: nah, the trick is getting several parties to have a quicklink on their harness! there would not be a problem if climbers would be better stewards, and not rely on the FAs. Take ownership of your crags! if the setup twists the rope, put a few more links on it. if the links wear out, replace them.

^^^ Yup.

Darren Mabe wrote: nah, the trick is getting several parties to have a quicklink on their harness! there would not be a problem if climbers would be better stewards, and not rely on the FAs. Take ownership of your crags! if the setup twists the rope, put a few more links on it. if the links wear out, replace them.

nailed it

Darren Mabe wrote: nah, the trick is getting several parties to have a quicklink on their harness!

And to make sure they don't use the quicklinks to bail from a bolt on a route they couldn't get up.

John Byrnes wrote: The trick, of course, is getting the perfect bolt spacing to equalize the load.

With the strength and reliability of modern 3/8th or 1/2 inch bolts, the whole equalization concept is kind of a waste of time and brain space. While equalization may be worthwhile or neccesary if building anchors out of knifeblades or small clean gear, with good beefy bolts it doesn't matter. One well-placed bolt is plenty to hold any loads that we will put on it; the second is just as a safegaurd against freak failures, defective bolts, etc. As such, it is fine to be unequalized with all the weight on one bolt...it won't fail anyway. If it does fail, the other bolt is stong enough to handle a minor shock load, if neccesary. Plus, shock-loading is minimal in a lowering scenario, since you have likely 30+ meters of dynamic rope out.

I point this out becuase it seems that an excessive amount of attention is applied to creating equalized two bolt anchors for lowering off, when this is a failry unimportant concern as compared to having good lowering hardwear and having correct bolt position to optimize the run of the rope, preventing twisting, etc.

I just thought I'd add.

I was unclear when I mentioned the mussy hooks. They are my favorite setup. If I were to go fix anchors that had two side by side Fixe rings, I would not use mussies. I would leave one Fixe ring and remove the other. I would then drill a new bolt somewhere above and somewhat equalize with chain. The ring is closed, requiring untying, so there is no reason for a mussy on the other bolt.

I used to put bolts side by side, each with two painted biners hanging from them. Or a quick link then a biner at the bottom. Quick, cheap, low profile, and dead easy to replace when worn. Sadly, people will steal these. If it's not wrench tight it goes away.

JCM wrote: With the strength and reliability of modern 3/8th or 1/2 inch bolts, the whole equalization concept is kind of a waste of time and brain space.

Yes, most of the time. No, the rest of the time.

There are places where the rock quality isn't great, often at the top of the cliff where the anchor is. Or in certain limestone areas where there are voids below the surface. Or where the bolts have visible corrosion. Or the route was put up by a Utahrd who expects everyone to rappel off it. Etc.

So while my intellect agrees with you, there are times when my gut is glad there are (at least) two bolts, equalized.

John Byrnes wrote: have you noticed that sometimes this set-up does not twist the rope? I don't know if this was an intended design feature,

Sure I've seen it. I've seen them twist as much or more. Rather than say it's fine when installed correctly, I'd be more inclined to say that they get installed wrong often enough that it should never be attempted in that configuration.

As for wear, if there is nothing blocking the rings from rotating when you pull them, they last so long that I just don't care about wear.

J. Albers wrote: That's interesting Mike. While I make sure to get my bolts from a reputable source, I have always bought my chain at the local hardware store...but perhaps I should be being a bit more careful. Can you tell anything by reading the 'Made in XXXX' label? Do you have a brand of chain etc. that you prefer in your experience?

Well, being in construction I come across tons if chain all the time. It usually comes from White Cap Supply. So it's usually free for me too. Then I usually make a point to get my quicklinks from a supply house as well.

nicelegs wrote: Sure I've seen it. I've seen them twist as much or more. Rather than say it's fine when installed correctly, I'd be more inclined to say that they get installed wrong often enough that it should never be attempted in that configuration.

I'm not arguing that point, I'm just saying it's possible to do it right.

nicelegs wrote:As for wear, if there is nothing blocking the rings from rotating when you pull them, they last so long that I just don't care about wear.

I've seen plenty of rings that have grooves worn half-way through them.

Mike Lane wrote: And you can get them from Home Depot too, which seems to sell an 'imitation of the real thing' with everything else they have in that store. I have had so much of their shit fall apart and break on me in my daily business that in no way would I ever buy something there to fully trust my life to. It s a phobia of mine, Ace and Lowes are ok for some reason.

Mike Lane wrote: Well, being in construction I come across tons if chain all the time. It usually comes from White Cap Supply. So it's usually free for me too. Then I usually make a point to get my quicklinks from a supply house as well.

dude, last I heard White Cap has been owned by the Home Depot for about 10 years now, can you really trust their products now?

and BTW how is it free, are you charging customers/your boss for your climbing rigs?

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I rapped off of fixe ring anchors like the ones in the link the OP posted thousands of times, and it has never once twisted my rope.

I have however rapped off of 2 bolt stations with just a single quick link on each bolt it like this picture, and that HAS twisted my rope.


Of course, bolts aligned in a vertical line are still more ideal, but I just never experienced fixe ring anchors (installed correctly) twisting my rope up.

Bill C. wrote:Maybe I'm just crazy, but I rapped off of fixe ring anchors like the ones in the link the OP posted thousands of times, and it has never once twisted my rope. I have however rapped off of 2 bolt stations with just a single quick link on each bolt it like this picture, and that HAS twisted my rope. Of course, bolts aligned in a vertical line are still more ideal, but I just never experienced fixe ring anchors (installed correctly) twisting my rope up.

its mainly about lowering, not rapping. plus as many know the force is MUCH less with vertically installed anchors