difference between a gear climb and a trad climb?

What are the personal differences (style issues) and community differences (ethics issues) between a "gear climb" and a "trad climb".

For instance (not to guide the ensuing comments but to provide some structure to the dichotomy between the two if anybody is unfamiliar):
A gear climb might be rehearsed on toprope before the FA (stylistic) and if a bolt is needed to be placed it might be placed on rappel before the FA (although this is of course open for debate). A trad climb is done ground-up, no rehearsal, and bolts if used are placed on lead.

Comments?

Obviously this is kind of a "personal preference" area but for the most part I agree with your statements on gear vs. trad *except* about how bolts may be placed.

For example, on Laurel Knob in NC there are a bunch of slab / water groove routes with little to no natural protection available. The FA did not place any bolts, except at belays (IIRC). Later, with FA permission, bolts were added, but they are 20ft+ apart and it's still scary as hell. I have no idea how the bolts were placed, but even if it was on rappel I'd still call that a trad climb.

On the flip side, there are some climbs in boulder canyon that take a mostly gear but where there would be a run out you just have bolts 8ft apart (I'm thinking of Thrill of the Chase at Happy Hour, among others). I never really thought about the terms before but I've always put those in a different category than a "real" trad climb, although admittedly the line is arbitrary.

EDIT: In fact, now that I think about it, I don't know for sure how those BoCan routes were bolted (99% sure it was rap-bolting but I didn't actually look it up). Even if they were bolted on lead though, the climb would still feel less "trad" to *me* if that makes any sense.

Historically, a trad climb was one that was done ground up with bolts placed on lead. If the climb was top rope rehearsed in any way, it was not considered a trad climb. Over the years the term "trad" climb has morphed into meaning a climb done with gear, but some would argue that the term "trad" means something different. Today, one has to be careful about denoting a climb a trad climb since it has taken on different meanings to different people.

What distinguished a trad climb from another type of climb has been discussed exhaustively on almost all the climbing web boards, and it seems to me to only make sense by looking at the term traditional climbing from a historical perspective.

well, one is rad and the other is.. ear(?)

Gear climbing is "eveything goes" I.e. aid and french free. Trad is: placing removeable pro for fall protection only, no pulling or stepping on any placed or pre existing gear allowed.

vivica jones wrote:Gear climbing is "eveything goes" I.e. aid and french free. Trad is: placing removeable pro for fall protection only, no pulling or stepping on any placed or pre existing gear allowed.

not sure I have ever heard anybody refer to the distinction like this.

vivica jones wrote:Gear climbing is "eveything goes" I.e. aid and french free. Trad is: placing removeable pro for fall protection only, no pulling or stepping on any placed or pre existing gear allowed.

You're describing the difference between "aid" and "free".

I would say you have to actually break this down into 4 terms:

Gear Ascent - Climbing a route using removable gear for protection. Pre-placing the gear on rappel is questionable. It is also possible to make gear ascents of routes not typically thought of as "gear climbs", like so
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh1ebs

Gear Climb - A route which is protected with removable pro. The ratio of clean gear to fixed gear necessary for it to qualify as a "gear climb" is debatable.

Trad Ascent - You climb from the bottom to the top. No hangdoging, no preplaced gear, no previewing on toprope or rappel. If you fall, you must lower back down. Some nuances - like lowering to the last no-hands stance instead of the ground, or toproping back up to your highpoint instead of pulling the rope and re-leading the entire pitch - are up for debate. I would also add that clipping any fixed gear which was installed on rappel by previous parties disqualifies the trad ascent (ie: onsighting a sport climb isn't "trad" unless you skip all the bolts!)

Trad Climb - A route which was established by the first ascentionist in the traditional style. Fixed gear must have been placed on lead (drilling from hooks instead of stances is again a point of ambiguity). Bolt spacing has nothing to do with it.

We are all dinosaurs. Here's the answer for today's climbers:

Trad = you need pro

Sport = bolted

gear climb = Huh???

runout bolted routes = WTF are you talking about???

The difference is you sound a lot cooler when you brag at the gym how your a TRAD climber.

+1 for Greg's response, although it used to be that Gear or Bolted was about the pro; Trad or Sport was about your attitude.

Trad = you need pro
Sport = bolted
gear climb = Huh???

Yup, this.

Let's just fully confuse matters. What do you think of when I say mixed climb?

Mixed isn't so confusing.

In the mountains, it means screws, pitons, nuts and cams. In ice climbing areas in the winter, it means the same plus maybe bolts and maybe not the pitons depending on the area. In popular areas on established rock routes with little ice, it means keep your tools and crampons away.

In areas where ice doesn't form, it means bolts plus nuts and cams.

How could that possibly be confusing?

^ what about rap bolting and mixed routes?

Greg Barnes wrote: runout bolted routes = WTF are you talking about???

really hard slab climbing

how about those sport climbers who take along a few cams for gear placements between distant bolts they just can't get to comfortably. Gear assisted sport route climb? agree to repeat the WTF question

What about a toprope on a boulder problem?

what about rap bolting a boulder problem? :D